A good artist - a successful artist?

[Art-lover]

Сообщение от DSF

When I say that "talent is realized," I do not mean the "promotion", "understanding of the crowd", "prodiranie to fame" and various other attributes of "success" or "failed". I want to say that if a person has a talent of the artist, given to him over, he will paint or draw, using any opportunity (if it is, of course, not killed). And what is the fate of his works - this is a question entirely different. ... But even if all the artist's work will be lost if we can say that he did not realize? He is committed, all that should be.

As the fate of paintings created - it is really another question.
A word about the Completed talent I knew it was your sense - as pursuing opportunities to create something that requires the soul of the artist. But the fact that "Talent is realized in any case, he will find the necessary means" You have not convinced me.
In my previous post, I wanted to say that such a statement as to relieve us (with the artist's environment, with society as a whole) the responsibility for the fate of talented artists, as implies some kind of fatality, or the realization of their talent, or special talent definition: "A talented artist - it is such an artist who was able to be realized."
And with this I can not agree. The tragedy of great talent is that a compromise in the works for them is so painful that they may prefer to die or to abandon creativity than do the "right" and clear things from them requires "Standart" path to success - to a minimum Success, which provides facilities for the realization of what is given them, as you write above. Not all, as Zverev, enough cigarette butts and a piece of paper, to express themselves. Some of the artists to realize their goals may require large canvases, paints and tools are not cheap, and a long time.
If the fate of depriving them of this, if their work did not support its infancy some philanthropist - talent can not be revealed. But this does not mean that it was not.

[DSF]

Thank you, dear Art-lover! Your messages are always interesting to read, and with many of them I agree. But on this issue with me, all the same, another view. I'll try to decrypt it.

In my previous post, I wanted to say that such an assertion ( "Talent is realized in any case, he will find the necessary funds") as it removes from us (with the artist's environment, with society as a whole) the responsibility for the fate of talented artists, t . k. implies some kind of fatality, or the realization of their talent ...
Some of the artists to realize their goals may require large canvases, paints and tools are not cheap, and a long time.

This attitude is very like the artists. Artists like to have them worn, their oblaskivayut, glorify, talk about their exclusivity and universal responsibility for their fate. It's nice, I will not hide. Under this case as well is a song about that, they say, time is not something people are ignorant, patrons no, I do not understand the genius, etc., but if I would give money, but bigger canvas, so paint expensive, so I would then have shown you ... It's all so familiar .... However, I prefer the words of Michelangelo: "There is no single idea in the world, which would be impossible to express with a piece of marble." There is no specific beautiful problems and ideas, which require some special colors or sizes. "However, enough apple on the edge of the table. Cezanne created masterpieces with apple and models, from which I would be turned away! "Size needed for one thing, as we have said, the artists, preparing for the next regional exhibition now three feet by four - all in the ass hit.

if their work did not support its infancy some philanthropist - talent can not be revealed.

We can not say whether the talented artist N, until we see that he made. We can talk any amount that would have created an artist H, if, yes if only ... It's just hot air.
  "The painter is counted only what he captured on canvas. And it has nothing to do with dreams. His area - this neat colors, divorced decent, linseed oil and lightly - turpentine. There comes a time when the artist turns out to be one on one with a blank canvas, and at this moment the entire husk flies (though this is, few people can see), any patron with his billions will not help here.
Therefore, with this definition of talent: "A talented artist - it is such an artist who was able to be realized," I completely agree. If not able to be realized - was not talented.
And another quote: "When a man wants to achieve something, he does not measure the success of its size earnings. Twenty years in a row I did not buy paintings. My meals were scarce. There was no money, but I never thought about it, I thought about what my achievements in painting. " Here is the artist - was realized.

[dedulya37]

Сообщение от DSF

This attitude is very like the artists. Artists like to have them worn, their oblaskivayut, glorify, talk about their exclusivity and universal responsibility for their fate. It's nice, I will not hide. Under this case as well is a song about that, they say, time is not something people are ignorant, patrons no, I do not understand the genius, etc., but if I would give money, but bigger canvas, so paint expensive, so I would then have shown you ... It's all so familiar ....

That you are not about our Pavel and say?

[DSF]

No, nobody here, I specifically had in mind. Simply artists such approaches - a dime a dozen. How do you see "grenadier" face - at least get a light, downed vodka glasses, none of the skirt does not pass, but "neraskryvshisya has talent and wants benefactor, better - patron - is here he is.

[Art-lover]

Сообщение от DSF

Artists like when worn with them, their oblaskivayut, glorify, talk about their exclusivity and universal responsibility for their destiny. It's nice, I will not hide. Under this case as well is a song about that, they say, time is not something people are ignorant, patrons no, I do not understand the genius, etc., but if I would give money, but bigger canvas, so paint expensive, so I would then have shown you ...

There are, as there Kuzma Prutkov:

Читать дальше... 

Give me strength of Samson;
Give me Sokratov mind;
Give light Cleon,
Filling the forum;
Cicero's eloquence,
Yuvenalovskuyu anger
And Aesop injury,
And the magic stick!

Give a barrel of Diogenes;
Hannibals sharp sword,
As for the glory of Carthage
So many vy cut from the shoulders!
Give me a foot Psyche
Sappho feminine poem,
And Aspaziny venture,
And Venus fascia!

Give me the skull of Seneca;
Give me a verse of Virgil, --
Shaking a man
From verbs of my mouth!

Сообщение от DSF

However, I prefer the words of Michelangelo: "No single idea in the world, which would be impossible to express with a piece of marble."
No special pictorial problems and ideas, which require some special colors or sizes.

They say that in traditional oriental calligraphy schools two years of training went out to learn to put a brush and ink dot. At the exam the student should have a piece of paper to put one single point so as to convey a given poetic image or impression of the landscape.
But if given a point to express any idea and feeling, then why go away from this perfect minimalism, to which further long learning?

Читать дальше... 

Why did our universe with a myriad zveznyh worlds with an infinite variety of forms of matter and spirit came from the explosion of a single point? Why the Creator either from unfathomable singularity, whether of the chaos it took to create the heavens and the earth, and creatures of earth and heaven, and, finally, the most idiotic of apes - man?
The artist or poet continue this torch works. Assume any idea in a perfect world, the artist can express with anything. But the contents of the outstanding works is infinitely richer than any expressible ideas. High creativity - it is not only the disclosure of the topic, this is a very intimate process in which the crucial insight of the artist. And the disclosure of this intuition depends not only anticipating the future image of the picture, but from a sense of texture of materials, from delicate shades of colors, from the dynamics of hand movement. The artist works with all my being, it is important to all. That is why the size of 3x4m strikingly different from the format 30x40cm, that's why different tools and paint. Sorry, but the artists do not feel a bond with the image format, and "special colors" - this is cobblers.

Сообщение от DSF

We can not say whether the talented artist N, until we see that he made. We can talk any amount that would have created an artist H, if, yes if only ... It's just hot air.
"The painter is counted only what he captured on canvas. And it has nothing to do with dreams. His area - this neat colors, divorced decent, linseed oil and lightly - turpentine. There comes a time when the artist turns out to be one on one with a blank canvas, and at this moment the entire husk flies (though this is, few people can see), any patron with his billions will not help here.

"Recognize the lion by his claws." Enough to confront the fact that the artist has done with his aspirations to understand it or bluff seriously. Do I need to explain that I do not consider the many luminaries "district" scale?
Apparently, many difficult to believe in the reality of situations where a strong artist in our time can not afford to this very blank canvas and paint neat, decent, diluted with linseed oil. " Just imagine, for example, that de Stael, with its refined mentality and with the level of artist. technology would have been imprisoned by the will of fate in some provincial town? Would have received it from his abstraction means to live and paint, to do what he considered proper? And always there is a way out of such a situation? Happy to make some crafts for bread, but at night paintings in charcoal on the wall paint? And if this power is left?
Is it fair in such cases say that "failed to be realized - was not talented?

[Ninni]

Сообщение от Art-lover

in the fact that "Talent is realized in any case, he will find the necessary means" You have not convinced me.
  Not all, as Zverev, enough cigarette butts and a piece of paper, to express themselves. Some of the artists to realize their goals may require large canvases, paints and tools are not cheap, and a long time.
If the fate of depriving them of this, if their work did not support its infancy some philanthropist - talent can not be revealed. But this does not mean that he was not.

Сообщение от DSF;

This attitude is very like the artists. Artists like to have them worn, their oblaskivayut, glorify, talk about their exclusivity and universal responsibility for their fate. It's nice, I will not hide. Under this case as well is a song about that, they say, time is not something people are ignorant, patrons no, I do not understand the genius, etc., but if I would give money, but bigger canvas, so paint expensive, so I would then have shown you ... It's all so familiar .... However, I prefer the words of Michelangelo: "There is no single idea in the world, which would be impossible to express with a piece of marble." No special pictorial problems and ideas, which require some special colors or sizes. "However, enough apple on the edge of the table. Cezanne created masterpieces with apple and models, from which I would be turned away! "Size needed for one thing, as we have said, the artists, preparing for the next regional exhibition now three feet by four - all in the ass hit.

DSF is categorically not agree with you.
One artist (by the way - frustrated) very snobbish to say:
  "real artist can create a masterpiece of coal and toilet paper".... Write something he can but who need a "masterpiece"? How many "masterpiece" live?
Quality material is needed in any case - especially in art.
I am very sorry that erased the photos from the computer experiment on colors, these pictures at the moment, would have served as a visual aid for people unreasonably deny quality.
Try to describe briefly:
  Conducted an experiment over the blue paint and were taken a few well-known companies from different price category.
Photographer tsvetoizmeneniya recorded each year. Not to mention the initial capacity of paints - noting only that one and the same color, very different for each firm in accordance with the price and with this the same as if they matched tsvetoizmenyalis from year to year. In major companies - after 10 years - blue color changed in all shades seroburozelenogo. Only 3 - very expensive firm stood the test of time and of these only one is 100%.
I think this is something he says.
I am not sure that the great Michelangelo meant that good marble can be replaced by a bad or clay also come down - because the most important talent ... and the phrase "There is no idea in the world, which would be impossible to express with a piece of marble" rather it was directed toward understanding the master of his favorite material .

Dear DSF, I respect you very much but now wonder your approval.
Talent talent division and ideas, scope, goals and preferences of the artists are different. There are some "artists" are heavily saves on material and get paint for the repair.
You can imagine the fate of these pictures ... the fate of coal and toilet paper.

[Art-lover]

DSF, try to explain that to me in this problem does not rest.
When I try to sort out their impressions of the picture, then sometimes try to first "see" it in the context of world art, and then imagine that it's not that no one had ever seen. And now, before some pictures in the soul rises protest against the removal of an imaginary, but to others - no. If any artist's paintings are not lost on the background of world art, then there is - can be selfish - the desire to work this artist had more. And when you find out that more of them could not be due to the fact that the environment is an artist resist their appearance, there is a sad question: why God sometimes gives the artist an exceptional talent, but fate is so that this talent is revealed only in part?
You see, success for a genius is often indifferent, those most interested that the genius could not stretch their wings - this society. But alongside the talented master - not "society", and the range of specific people who may be at the career of the master watch with indifference or disbelief.

Returning to the question "A good artist - a successful artist?" I want to note one interesting aspect.
Infrastructure of art in our time is very industrialized. In this "factory of stars" demand very specific, "conditioning" talents, and in limited quantities. Therefore, one of the main tasks of contemporary art institutions - the suppression of creativity, which is not invested: that might divert attention from the lucrative brands, awaits the fate of weed.

[LCR]

What I did not interfere in your very interesting conversation and said nothing in their mouths, does not mean that I have not watched him with great attention. It so happens that it seems to me that both of you are right. Still, in the main I agree with DSF:

Сообщение от DSF

When I say that "talent is realized," I do not mean the "promotion", "understanding of the crowd", "prodiranie to fame" and various other attributes of "success" or "failed". I want to say that if a person has a talent of the artist, given to him over, he will paint or draw, using any opportunity (if it is, of course, not killed). And what is the fate of his works - this is a question entirely different. "Zdaneviches" there sooner or later, even a hundred years, would be a good picture. But even if all the artist's work will be lost if we can say that he did not realize? He is committed, all that should be.

I'll try to express their views.

Сообщение от Art-lover

High creativity - it is not only the disclosure of the topic, this is a very intimate process in which the crucial insight of the artist. And the disclosure of this intuition depends not only anticipating the future image of the picture, but from a sense of texture of materials, from delicate shades of colors, from the dynamics of hand movement. The artist works with all my being, it is important to all. That is why the size of 3x4m strikingly different from the format 30x40cm, that's why different tools and paint. Sorry, but the artists do not feel a bond with the image format, and "special colors" - this is cobblers.

Size, indeed, very important. Colors, too, but the size terribly important. And it is true that sometimes the artist to realize their intentions does not allow the lack of space, lack of money for materials. But in the end, all is not so important - the artist is realized on smaller canvases, working Paint colors - the preservation of his works, is another matter.

Сообщение от Art-lover

"recognize the lion by his claws." Enough to confront the fact that the artist has done with his aspirations to understand it or bluff seriously. Do I need to explain that I do not consider the many luminaries "district" scale?
Apparently, many difficult to believe in the reality of situations where a strong artist in our time can not afford to this very blank canvas and paint neat, decent, diluted with linseed oil. " Just imagine, for example, that de Stael, with its refined mentality and with the level of artist. technology would have been imprisoned by the will of fate in some provincial town? Would have received it from his abstraction means to live and paint, to do what he considered proper? And always there is a way out of such a situation? Happy to make some crafts for bread, but at night paintings in charcoal on the wall paint? And if this power is left?
Is it fair in such cases say that "failed to be realized - was not talented"?

Here we are in the hypothetical. But I think that if they were born in some provincial town, he would have done what was done Chagall and Soutine, ie the foot would have left the place where he bylaby maximum opportunity to realize themselves.

Сообщение от Art-lover

When I try to sort out their impressions of the picture, then sometimes try to first "see" it in the context of world art, and then imagine that it's not that no one had ever seen. And now, before some pictures in the soul rises protest against the removal of an imaginary, but to others - no. If any artist's paintings are not lost on the background of world art, then there is - can be selfish - the desire to work this artist had more. And when you find out that more of them could not be due to the fact that the environment is an artist resist their appearance, there is a sad question: why God sometimes gives the artist an exceptional talent, but fate is so that this talent is revealed only in part?

Of course, when you see the work sooner gone a great artist, bear to think what we have been deprived. But by itself this is an infinite sadness, frustration, this suggests that the artist realized that - he left things in full force showing his talent - otherwise, what would we regret?

Сообщение от Art-lover

Returning to the question "A good artist - a successful artist?" I want to note one interesting aspect.
Infrastructure of art in our time is very industrialized. In this "factory of stars" demand very specific, "conditioning" talents, and in limited quantities. Therefore, one of the main tasks of contemporary art institutions - the suppression of creativity, which is not invested: that might divert attention from the lucrative brands, awaits the fate of weed.

All this is also true. Nevertheless, the talent always realized. Our main problem, I think it is more likely to find it, do not pass, because the information very much, and it is filtered in some way, which you both time and talk.

Here, I apologize for triviality of the above considerations

[dedulya37]

Сообщение от LCR

Of course, when you see the work sooner gone a great artist, bear to think what we have been deprived. But by itself this is an infinite sadness, frustration, this suggests that the artist realized that - he left things in full force showing his talent - otherwise, what would we regret?

As they say some of our forumintsy, then I completely agree with you, thank you.

[fross]

Сообщение от LCR

All this is also true. Nevertheless, the talent always realized. Our main problem, I think it is more likely to find it, do not pass, because the information very much, and it is filtered in some way, which you both time and talk.

And where there are artists show their work without significant material costs? And so that they could see and give their assessment of the specialists?