Prices and investments in paintings by old masters

[Кирилл Сызранский]

Сообщение от Pavel

Buy today, but there must also understand noodle-hung, a lilac bush, which was only later in the trash.

That's who "hung", and who himself "hung".
For example, you, Pavel, I "hung" will not succeed.
I dare you-! : D

[palamedesz]

Сообщение от Pavel

The Old Masters, where you will take them! All valuable long in museums and collections, but what I fear is already available for sale.

Let some clarity. At the western auction items are sold two categories. The first is known, with provenance, with indisputable attribution, restored. These are maximum. That they are trying to invest money investors. The risk is minimal. And the second category. This "raw material" for professionals, those who are visually can roughly determine the age and degree of preservation. These things are relatively expensive, but there is certainly risk of error.
Tell the story of their practices. At one of the Western auctions I looked now. By all indications, it is an imitation of Dutch painting of the XVII century, performed in XIX. The picture on the board, parketirovana, and hence turnover otstrugan and it is impossible to judge the age of the board. Painting dense with drifting varnish cracelures. And only one site pointed out that it is still XVII century. I bought this painting for a pittance. Houses cleared. It turned out that the whole picture was registered by some restorer in the XIX century. Apparently, the owner was worried too fluid and fine original painting. And only one part of the restorer did not dare to prescribe, lacked the professionalism of the artist. After I deleted the account was opened quite perfectly sound picture of the famous Flemish masters of the XVII century. And these stories have many. So it all depends on the approach.

[Кирилл Сызранский]

palamedesz, a good story and a good example.

[Pavel]

Сообщение от palamedesz

Let me bring some clarity. At the western auction items are sold two categories. The first is known, with provenance, with indisputable attribution, restored. These are maximum. That they are trying to invest money investors. The risk is minimal. And the second category. This "raw material" for professionals, those who are visually can roughly determine the age and degree of preservation. These things are relatively expensive, but there is certainly risk of error.
Tell the story of their practices. At one of the Western auctions I looked now. By all indications, it is an imitation of Dutch painting of the XVII century, performed in XIX. The picture on the board, parketirovana, and hence turnover otstrugan and it is impossible to judge the age of the board. Painting dense with drifting varnish cracelures. And only one site pointed out that it is still XVII century. I bought this painting for a pittance. Houses cleared. It turned out that the whole picture was registered by some restorer in the XIX century. Apparently, the owner was worried too fluid and fine original painting. And only one part of the restorer did not dare to prescribe, lacked the professionalism of the artist. After I deleted the account was opened quite perfectly sound picture of the famous Flemish masters of the XVII century. And these stories have many. So it all depends on the approach.

Well, one has to be a specialist in the restoration and experience. Good job. Something similar is told Bohumil Rajnov. There is another aspect, as are small Dutch? They were once famous for a large number of repetitions. But we do it will be expensive.

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Сообщение от Cyril Syzransky

That's who "hung", and who himself "hung".
For example, you, Pavel, I "hung" will not succeed.
I dare you-! : D

I do not do anything except for painting, ie not hung, trying to understand. So you can be rest assured, I do not hang noodles. I meant polozritelno high prices on some auctions on things that are clearly oriented. I have seen the occurrence of auctions and read about it in Bohumil Rainov.

[Кирилл Сызранский]

Сообщение от Pavel

I saw the occurrence of auctions and read about it in Bohumil Rainov.

We saw from what book you are talking about.
There Rainov was such a book "is a strange craft." - about the world of antiques, collectors books, paintings, antiques, auctions, and about the black market. It is written, it was only 30%as artistic. All the material he took from life, as he was many times associated with this side of life, with this business.
Yes, Pavel, and why do you call the writer's God y sweet? He-Physician!
By the way, this book is in the network, such as here.
http://lib.ru/DETEKTIWY/RAJNOW/remeslo.txt

[Pavel]

I have my own copy. Very instructive vesch.Sovetuyu read.

[sergejnowo]

to expand the horizon made the request for examination at the show work.
Grovel nobody, but dry, according delavomu given information "behind the scenes.
This work is a mirror copy of the workshop Rubens "The Brazen Serpent", 186.4 x 264.5 cm from the National Gallery in London. For this work there are drawings /sketches by Rubens. Rubens and his studio did not make 1:1 copies. Typically, the basic preparatory work and the final version, the grouping of the plot ideintichna, but often standing next to the characters' changing "clothes or" persons ". Often, no changes had only one character, a woman in the dark in the center of work. How This zone is the second wife of artist Hélène Fourment.
Work attributed to Rubens' workshop based on the age and weight of historical nuances. The faces and hands of the characters touch-up, which gives the work of "force". Only this touch-up and is attributed to Rubens.
This view is the British about his work: This work was probably executed with some studio assistance during the second half of the 1630s. The painting may have been blocked in by a member of the studio on the basis of a modello by Rubens, and then worked up by the master.
Work certainly weaker, although it must take into account the difference in size.
If this "tricky" copy of a Rubens, the "exchange" clothes turned out not bad.: D
Your opinion respected?

[K-Maler]

Сообщение от sergejnowo

Using the Fn certainly weaker, although it must take into account the difference in size.
If this "tricky" copy of a Rubens, the "exchange" clothes turned out not bad.

Here it is interesting why the mirror. It seems so easy to sketch it, and perhaps prescribe. In any case, the mirror points to the fact that the workshop of Rubens, this work is not relevant. Here's why: Rubens gave the composition's importance for the expression of ideas - is fundamental. His disciples knew it. If it did copy some of his studio, she could not be mirrored. In the zest of the puzzles ... But then resold it can be. Do not remember the exact story, Moses and Aaron, the snake swallowed moving in the desert ... Book of Exodus. Request this will be.

[sergejnowo]

Сообщение от K-Maler

If the copy did some of his studio, she could not be a mirror

This idea also came to my mind first.
Asked why so?
Reply with words and as I understand on the basis of historical research.
Rubens himself and the studio did not write the copy. Even with the preparatory transfer of plot /rough work on canvas would not be copying, but work on the grounds.
Only the composition to have worked under the strict guidance of the studio master, transferred 1:1. Minor Valais, colors of clothing are often prescribed in different ways. Many service jobs shop survived until our times
In the version with the words, the plot works from the museum in London, was written under konkrentnogo and not very wealthy customer. To avoid a direct copy was made of the mirror, on the grounds that the guys from the shop.
Work on the fact of the mid-17 th century ..... that is all about attribution.

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Сообщение от K-Maler

I do not remember exactly the plot, Moses and Aaron, the snake swallowed moving in the desert ... Exodus

5)and the people spoke against God and against Moses: why you have brought us out of Egypt to die [us] in the wilderness, for [here] there is no bread, no water and our soul loatheth this food.
6)And the LORD sent poisonous serpents, which stung the people, and many people died in [sons] of Israel.
7) And the people came to Moses and said: We have sinned, have spoken against the LORD and against you, and pray to the Lord, that He take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
8) And the LORD said to Moses: Make thee a serpent, and set it upon a pole, and stung by looking at it, shall live.
9) And Moses made a bronze serpent and put it on a pole, and when the snake bitten person, he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

at work, that that copy of himself Moses and the people, in my opinion, more like "[the children] of Israel": rolleyes:

[Кирилл Сызранский]

Сообщение от VYACHESLAV

The fashion for such a painting was from the end 19 to the First World. Nouveaux riches adorned her his apartment. They wrote a number of shops and two post-war. This explains the fairly large selection today.

Yes, this is so.
I had a thing Max Giese (Giese, Max Eduard 1876-1916), a free copy of (nach) Rubens, s /m, 120H93.
  Even the picture is, but bad.

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Сообщение от sergejnowo

Only the composition to have worked under the strict guidance of the studio master, transferred 1:1. Minor Valais, colors of clothing are often prescribed in different ways. Many service jobs shop survived until our times

Due to the surviving letters, much is known about how working studio of Rubens.
In 1619 Rubens Duke William Neuburg wrote: "Execute" St. Mikhail's task very difficult. I fear that among my students is not easy to find such people would be able to, even in my drawing, do that job. In any case, I'll have to register his own thing. "
Painting is located in Munich's Alte Pinakothek.

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Сообщение от sergejnowo

School of Rubens (Peter Paul Rubens 1577-1640), 123cm x 167cm, with a frame 146cm x 188cm. Conclusion guru Rubens in Germany, Professor, Dr. Muller-Hofstede (Prof.Dr. Müller-Hofstede). He confirmed the school of Rubens, calls the name of the student and believes that the faces of some characters doctored hand of the master.

In my experience suggests that whether such a thing in Russia, it can successfully sell.
It is, "with the frame 146cm x 188cm".