We are now preparing a book of memoirs about Roginsky, due out in UFOs.
Recently, I received a transcript interview Oleg Yakovlev, he was taken my young and very talented friend Ira Kronrod, and it I really like it. I think the editor of the book Tackstem grind and cut, probably because it is long, but I want to give him a "kind," let it be a stream of consciousness - he's clever and sometimes funny, sometimes insightful, in general, see, and when tired, you can throw
I should explain that in some places referred to Nana - I did it myself and there. The fact that Liana I am on your passport, this is my official name, and everything is always nadyvali me Nana. Yes, I'm half Georgian, half Polish (I know, I know, the combination now is that neither is popular, but I do not hold it against me, I can not change anything )
Oleg Yakovlev
Interview Irina Kronrod
RP. It was many years ago, 20 years, probably, he says: "You know, I think that is so pleasant a person dies. Example. Such a thing is not worth printing.
IR. You are not asked what he had in mind?
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RP. Dying is not, well, that's the process of dying, when there arms and legs refused, and so on, when the soul is there somehow hovers and leaves the body ... These things are not worth it. Here. Of the artists he most loved, I think, two. "Funeral in Ornano" Courbet, he really liked this painting, he often went to the Louvre for hours looking at this picture. In my opinion, this was one of his favorite artists. A lot of characters ... Such fuscous in principle. Misha - a man was grim. Although it slipped some jokes ... and sometimes he said, but serious jokes, never have I heard of vulgarity. And by the way, I am very grateful to him, one of the first, probably, considered the Russian Schnabel. Moreover, precisely the period which is less successful at Schnabel, that these plates, which even then fall off it already. He told me even some time it imposed: see Schnabel, what daring what he's wonderful, powerful, a true American. Well, I somehow did not really, I remember, on the contrary, I was annoyed by these plates stupid. And then suddenly revealed Schnabel in his abstract works, fantastic ... I'm an idiot that did not buy one work Schnabel, who was long ago on the FIAC-e, it is called "Maria Callas", you know it, probably, surely it hangs in some a very good place, do not know? This triptych, a great job in this whole wall. Over 400 000 francs to sell, well, just ridiculous, you could buy, had the money, you idiot. Here. What else to add something? So I think that the two major was your favorite artist - dashing Schnabel and multi-figured compositions, very successful, the dark, in the spirit Roginsky, gloomy. Although I think that this idiocy of Soviet life, which he extolled. Do you know for sure these great works on the oilcloth, I gave them their Nana and she recently restored, with bubbles: "You know, Sartre died. - Yes, he's dead, so what? "(Laughs). The bubbles, of course, not invented it, the blisters went into the painting from Larionov, from children. I've seen, by the way, awesome pictures of some of the kings, in my opinion, Alexander I, children's drawings, there is some bubbles, too, he wrote it in French. «Maman dit ....» Is there something like that. Fascinating. That, and he laughed when he showed this work, we had participated in the same exhibition.
IR. What?
RP. Was George Lavrov gallery /George Lavroff. Disgusting this Frenchwoman, then she was the mistress of the gallery, when her husband was Georges Lavrov, a rare son of a gun.
IR. Where is it located?
RP. It was a very good location, it was very close to Tamplonom, the old Tamplonom, on the same side. Tamplon was in the yard. It was also a porch in the yard, but much closer. Near a gas station. There was still hanging brick "gallery Lavrov" Three years ago I was walking, she still hung. There, in my opinion, was once the room with the ambulance, but they are rebuilt. Very nice gallery. But because they are crooks, and their reputation has been undermined by these vorovanymi works Filonov, four watercolors, you know.
IR. No.
RP. Well? Filonov can not be on the market, because the whole Filonov was handed his sister in the Russian Museum. Filonov nothing to sell, categorically not sell to anyone. Maybe he's someone gave to a great love. He was offered big money for his work, but he refused. In short, there are not any on the market. And someone has forged four watercolors Filonov, left them in the Russian Museum, and the real work has taken away to the west. And Chet Lavrov suggested they work. And they gave directly across the street at the Beaubourg. Russian realized it was a process. In my opinion, was not even a process, in my opinion, the French have shown good faith and passed easily. Prices, in my opinion, were on 25 000 francs for watercolor.
IR. So, why did you work with laurel?
RP. Well, first of all, he was Russian, and secondly, the profits here in this bank, all of a sudden, I do not know why, probably, he had some problems with Israel ... And no, the army, he served as something. I do not know why. He was a roguish fellow, I think he had some problems in Israel at that time. Like this friend of his, former, Mark Wasilewski, disgusting. Well, everyone was talking about him, even Georges Lavrov said that this sleazebag. In his view enough to understand it.
IR. All right. Hence, you have done with Roginsky exhibition Lavrov's. Together, or were even more?
RP. There were also other artists.
IR. Who else was there?
RP. I see. I have, perhaps, was an invitation. And Roginskii exhibited these great works. And he went, giggling, rubbing his hands, and terribly happy. He was worried now this idiocy of Russian life. Shades of these, all this garbage. I do not know why. He had all his childhood ... I do not know, maybe it's some kind of first impression - that the power cord and plug this one - almost all the work. Thirst for electricity had this inexplicable.
IR. Plus, they get some sort of ontological reality. So live ...
RP. That wall you remember? Old work, very often, do not switch, namely the outlet. Sometimes, even with these very tricks of ceramic, that attach the wires. They are beautiful, of course, I also liked it, but not enough to enter into painting.
IR. It means you believe it to this his work with gurgling ...
RP. I think Roginskii drawn to literature - all without writing a literary work, he wanted to illustrate. Already.
IR. And what would it be for work, if he wrote that a genre?
RP. Well, I think it was closer to ... maybe even to Trifonov. Oddly. Which I do not like very much. Well, Trifonov does not suit me. He is not a singer communal. I do not know.
IR. So you would define as a singer Roginsky communal?
RP. Of course! Yes, absolutely. No, I am sure that Misha had a very hard life, weight problems, and he fought once, giggling with his last strength. Scoffed at the fact that his once humiliated and tormented.
IR. So you think that even in his Paris period ...
RP. Paris will not affect his work, he also wrote all his life to Moscow. And Misha, I once asked: "Well you ever painted in Paris, view of Paris. And he said to me he is not interested in Paris.
IR. Still, he has great scenery, for example, type Rivoli ...
RP. Well, this is some recent work, perhaps, after the conversation already. He has some work that little bit even Bonnard stretch, barely.
IR. You know, it is remarkable that you mention Bonnard, because the other day when I was at an exhibition in the gallery Schmidt, and there hung Bonnard, and I was just a shock: a piece of Bonnard, which is absolutely Roginsky. Absolutely Roginsky.
RP. Well, somehow, he probably ... But in these years we have never met. I last saw Misha, incidentally, should show the film, the last of his Opening Day at Aliskevicha.
IR. In what year was it?
RP. That was two years before his death.
IR. And then we have not met?
RP. Then not met, and before that we also did not meet with him.
IR. And when you meet him?
RP. From Roginsky we met in Moscow in 1973 in the studio, so it was a small apartment Misha Chernysheva. Here. Misha I am very grateful for many things, that is, so he took me to the Library of Foreign Literature, the handle just took and took: see logs, do not be stupid. Now he tells everyone that he was my teacher, but it is not true: it works on my can not say, but I forgive him because of this. And then he introduced me to Roginsky. I remember just like it was yesterday, he walked through the door, a man of medium height, wearing a green cloak, a cloak overlaundered greenbacks, and in the hands of the string bag, string bag is absolutely the same as in his paintings. I think there was a bottle of kefir and something else, wrapped in a gray piece of paper or brown paper, well, remember the paper. I was just shocked routine. He did not like beards ... no ... I mean he beard and penetrating eyes, he has a clean, but at the same time firm, not children, not a naive view. He looked at me, "Yes!" Appreciated. -Oh, hi, Michael! - Hello, hello, so bass. You found him, right?
IR. No, I'm with Nana met two weeks after his death.
RP. That's because a little nabychilsya. Looked work of Misha, my work was not there. Since I do not think he liked other artists. He was, I think, and do not even think I have every confidence, self-sufficient artist. In addition to Schnabel, who he wanted to take now that America's daring and freedom of some. That, and it is unlikely he was interested in some other artists. But no! Though he always spoke very highly of the Turkish and Zlotnikov. Here, it may be, its some old friends, I do not know neither the first nor the second, only work. Unfortunately, I was surprised that he was absolutely indifferent, maybe he did not know these works, I love you very much, Lord, he died in Paris long ago, this man, who was very much like Kafka, surprisingly, with Jewish-Armenian name ... same name as that? Well, "Science", you remember him now. He went to Poland in 58, and then went to France, and here the stories, he closed the man was, and had little contact with other artists who remained in Russia, then, in 1958, all correspondence was intercepted, of course, and no letters did not reach for sure. There, he painted some works on huge rolls of paper, long almost a kilometer. He went there for something he missed. Some abstract works, as was his name, now ... Then he had a translation agency, and I've already learned in that capacity. He was a friend ... as he was a close friend of Shelkovskoy, I do not know, anyway, I saw him once in the company Shelkovsky. What was his name (rummages in directories).
IR. Ah Lord Vladimir Slepian ..
RP. Amazing artist.
IR. So Roginskii?
RP. And, yes, Roginsky, of course, juices, he was very fond of, well, they were old friends.
IR. But he loved it, it's a personal friendship, or art?
RP. I think that art, he liked here this looseness, this outrage, which Sokov allowed himself, as one of the best painters in the Art Institute. When I got to Strogangovku, so I'm not studying there, I told this story, but long before I met Kozlinskikh and Kozlinsky the then head of the department was drawing. And when I hit the Art Institute of Kozlinskikh, he showed me the work Sokov, academic figures. It was something unbelievable, he painted as a god. Well the same story that happened to Burlyuk. Burliuk was an incredible graphic artist, went to the most savage primitive and Juice went even further.
IR. What Roginsky said about Slepian?
RP. About Slepian did not say anything, he did not know him. Have not seen his work. Although, maybe I'm wrong, but I've never heard of.
IR. And when you first saw the work Roginsky?
RP. Work Roginsky I saw in the magazine «Studio International», an English journal, I do not know it exists or not, in the reproductions. Some Czech went to Russia and filmed there quite a lot of artists, this avant-garde, I do not know what to call it illegal ...
IR. Non-conformist?
RP. In short, I saw these works, I'm afraid they liked.
IR. And there was a Roginsky?
RP. Well, just a wall some doors, something like that, as far as I remember.
IR. That is, 60-ies.
RP. Yes, if it were black and white photographs, four of the worksheet. Well you can find this magazine.
IR. That is, it was before your personal interview with him?
RP. That was before my meeting with him, so I'm so glad to see this artist. I was delighted, and I immediately said, I liked the fact that he comes from pop art and pop art is absolutely Russian. Neither the "Brill", or "Kent" or "Coca-Cola, and here is the Soviet way of life, the most sickening.
IR. That is for you the idea of pop art, you take it that the Russian art was Pop Art.
RP. Well, communal Who? Roginsky and I do not know, well, a follower not a follower, it is not a follower, Kabakov. Its installation on the theme of communal. They are very interesting to me terribly boring, I love painting, I find it hard to appreciate such work. Then it seems to me that Ilya - a man cunning unlike Roginsky, Roginskii to the utmost sincerity in these works. Or he said something, or he nabychitsya, so puff up, and says nothing, if it something does not like it. I think that they are now two ... Well, maybe just Zlotnikov. Not Zlotnikov and Turkish! Turkish, too, the life of Soviet and shops there, echoes.
IR. So, here's an idea put forward by Sapgir that Roginskii - the father of Russian pop-art.
RP. No, I do not think that he, he, I think that Zlotnikov too. Although Zlotnikov no Zlotnikova can be ranked as the artists might not be a pop arat, but, Lord, as they are called that? Well, "Another" F "," Again, Three, bytopisanie with elements of optimism.
IR. Yes, but just pop art - it is as if some reaction to a society of excess konsyumericheski minded, huh?
RP, You know, for us to gauge - is to get some order, by any party under the May 1, there will a jar of crab and happy, green peas to make a salad, I remember how it was difficult. Maybe this time you do not remember. And I remember how my dad was happy he at that time already was a colonel, held a high post, he was awarded for the launch there any satellites, but when he received an order by May 1 mom terribly happy. Oh, green peas! Ah Can you imagine what it is. Or there is the bank squash caviar! Incredible joy! For us, it was already a surplus. I can say is irrelevant. In my class there were five children of ministers. It depended only on the location of the house. While there was some Chinese School, where he studied Hindi, there were no British or French schools. Anyway, it all depended on the area. And here in our class were normal children, children of the proletarians, the children of Soviet officials, I, the children of five ministers and plus there are some secretaries still something there. Large bumps. We were very close friends, and went to each other at home. I've seen live ministers. Ira Taranich we had, which I studied English, for example. She came a teacher, taught English. And I saw how they live. Well, Lord, any inzhinerik lives worse. Nothing special. And in the country, the usual summer residence, where the green paint painted, Peter Palych from some control of their guard, had a car. Nothing special. For all that, that my father worked hard as the Pope Carlo, day and night. I must say that it reminded me a lot of Peter the Great. Heavy industry led, you can imagine.
IR. Since returning to Roginsky, when you saw the first time his work, they are afraid you liked.
RP. They liked it I'm afraid that ... I've seen this before, someone had brought me, in my opinion, was huge in the Life of Andy Warhol published. It was the 64 th year. I saw this Life, and realized that life still can not go on, have something else to do. And I started there something riveting, some cloth glued to the canvas, something else. All this is thrown out long ago, my mother. She tried very hard to get rid of this garbage: "Well, you're a grown-up now!". I remember when I came out of the army, I assembled an absolutely parallel with Roginsky railway posters and all sorts of posters there for safety, and civil defense, and even met with the artist Sorokin, who drew the posters on civil defense. Well it's been a work of genius!
IR. Roginsky they too collect?
RP. Roginsky collected them and was inspired by these railway posters, there are works that I have, that Nana photographed. He had a lot of work, a peasant who falls under the engine with bulging eyes, absolutely brilliant! Well, all this in another way it was drawn much more freely. Still, a sense of the horror remained. And I gather, my mother threw it all, still can not forgive her. The day before yesterday had a row with her again a little bit ... Oh, nightmare.
IR. And now you see Roginsky.
RP. And I saw Roginsky and terribly pleased! Oh! I had a masterpiece: Smoking in places where allowed! This poster was a rather thick cardboard. The strongest thing! If Roginskii saw, I do not know, he just burst into tears of happiness. And I took risks, could sit for 15 days, I went with the mites, all this pulling, the stations are different, I think, before I even drove Petushkov. Still. Unlike Erofeev. Terrific. At the Paris road, I remember traveling done. Well, and I am just glad that he sings exactly what should sing right here, on our Soviet land.
IR. What is sing on Soviet soil?
RP. Well that's just what makes a smile and lets skeptical that the Soviet way of life. That is to change the sign completely. Change minus to plus. And Roginsky succeeded magnificently. Although, with everything, he was very serious. Bascom said so under his nose. Sometimes he reminded me a hedgehog. Although his eyes are certainly not like a hedgehog, but bristled!
IR. After your first meeting you will immediately become friends?
RP. No. No, no, no, I had nothing to show him, and he once, in my opinion, even I did not notice.
IR. And you do not want to go to his shop to see what he does?
RP. I got to his studio, just when he was with Nana. Perhaps, in the 75-76 year, in a basement somewhere close to the Pushkin Museum had been the studio, a basement was Roginsky then leave, I do not know why, apparently, wanted to discard the life and forget about everyday life, he wore Tarpaulin boots, some kind of jacket, well then my jacket and I wore it was fashionable. But he had some such awful jacket, wool stuck there, I do not know ... Here.
IR. And who brought you there?
RP. Me? Who brought him? I do not remember anyone of the artists, in my opinion, Yura Tilman, a sculptor. He lives in Italy, I have long not seen him. And my wife was French, Dominic. Here, well, we fell, of course. So we sat, but if I were not sitting, we would have fallen.
IR. Roginsky you show your work?
RP. He showed his old job. If not, well, of course, I've seen in 75-m of his work at the exhibition, what he called retro. But they liked me less.
IR. But he'll take the ambiguous attitude.
RP. For a bye-bye, shu-shu, I realized that it was not him. What is it a temporary fad, that it will go. That was clear. He could not combine with any Izmailov, no ... as a second-it was a painter, clean water merchants, portretiki drew, tut, tut, tut, tut. Even on their background Roginskii stood with their trams, but it is a Dutch smacked on the other side.
IR. And when you came to see him?
RP. He showed us all the doors there, switches, no switches, sockets.
IR. He commented something?
RP. No, he giggled. Giggling, some pants there on a stool, I just remembered. What struck me was so confident brushwork, swear words in certain jobs, and the exact (laughs), penetration in these works. Well, just wonderful, lasting impression, as yesterday was! Although the basement this ... Well, maybe this ambience is just a game ... just that it was necessary in order to better see these works.
IR. What do you think, what is the status of the text in his works? What he introduces the word?
RP. We live, we do not care - I think so. We live and we are happy. Something like that. Although I say again, I emphasize, that in life he was a cheerful person. I think that as probably the best artist I do not know how, probably, any artist, except for traders at all really, throughout his life he painted his portrait. As I am trying to draw a self portrait, well, I may be a lot of self-portraits, because it was such Yakovlev, Yakovlev was-so. A Roginskii - more of a piece, his childhood, such as in his youth was shocked he wanted to find something good, funny in this period of his life.
IR. Many people react to his art is very clear in saying what a depressive artist. What do you think?
RP. I think the same mistake as with Chekhov. Absolutely. Chekhov, too, giggling. It seems to me that they would be very good friends, and shook hands with one another would. I do not know whether he loved Chekhov Roginsky. In general, I must say that Roginsky never seen a book, he never discussed what we read. I do not know, read it ooze?
IR. About the books he did not say?
RP. Never. With me he never said.
IR. And about painting?
RP. About painting he was saying very much. He showed his work, for example, when we had become friends with him, I often came when they arrived here in Paris, they even for a time lived with us in our small, can even say, a tiny two-room apartment with two dogs, was too small, but very nice. Captivating dogs were. But they somehow could not find seats. Then he succeeded, thanks to the fact that my wife was my grandmother. And this is my grandmother was a tiny chambre de bonne, and he began to paint there shelves, they even lived there. And then, I do not know, in momemu, Victor Kullback help them be registered on the River Seine in the Cité des Arts. And they are lucky, they did not live in this terrible building, but in this old French house, where several apartments converted into a studio and so on. And there was a skylight, hatch or something, as I remember, Nana knitting, Nana earning money immediately, it is an amazing woman, of course, I admire her feat just otherwise would not call her life Roginsky. She immediately settled somewhere again Kullback she arranged to sell knitwear for some samples, at first she was on hand knitting, then on a knitting machine, and sold at some chic boutiques, Nana, of course, it is incredible needlewoman . That, and it appeared some money. And then Roginskii not sell anything. Or chance. No sell-sell! He bought a Pole, from whom I bought then, one or two of work, now I can not remember who lived also in the Cité des Arts, which with great respect the work Roginsky, but he did not have much money. I had bought because they had run out completely. And I have just started (laughs). Well, then, of course, brothers-artists, the same Kullback, who likes to tut-tut shu-shu.
IR. And so the era when they lived with you, you talked a lot about painting.
RP. We did not say anything, absolutely, that is, questions ... They had a difficult journey, this whole mytarnya with papers, with the dogs, something to take out something to bring, some canvases, then these works, which they exported, go the Ministry of Culture and then humiliate another to stamp a set. They were exhausted. And I have felt more or less old Parisian, I could order a beer, French said. Well, we walked, I showed them a little Paris, ordered a beer in a cafe, they went crazy: What's his French! Вобщем, nonsense! Nana was terribly angry, she just hated the whole scoop, spat and praising Paris. Roginsky tried to find a place, he wanted more than anything else, it seemed to me to start drawing.
IR. And he had a period when not working on?
RP. Well, at my home there was nowhere to just work it. As soon this chambre de bonne, he immediately began to draw. I remember I went somewhere on the third day, already on the wall was priknoplena work, and there he painted some shelves, still something of the sort. Of course, all of them stunned as all of us, plenty of shops and so on. I think, just that these shelves with bottles of unknown ... he drew, not because he's so fond of drink, he liked to relax and call him a drunkard can be impossible. I do not see him drunk ever. Sometimes he was a bit ... hee-hee ha-ha, a little tipsy. But no more.
IR. Do you think that these regiments appeared ...
RP. It's like a reaction. Because on these shelves, you know, this time when nobody knows what, some hills are depicted, I think this is such a reaction to abundance. As the story Harms, remember when the oil is put on the shelf, where it was not known that. I do not know if he had read Kharms. What I have to say? Ask questions, I have exhausted my enthusiasm now.
IR. You told me that you are not sure, do read ever Roginsky anything.
RP. No, no, I'm sure he had read, we just never talked. There was a beautiful Roginsky syllable, and it is much more smoothly expounded his idea than I am now. It was evident that a man of great, deep culture. Simply, we never talked about the literature.
IR. And what are you talking about?
RP. His work.
IR. You have expressed your opinion about his works, or rather, he talked about his work?
RP. I am sometimes asked: Misha, and what you're inspired, there is, say, painting this picture? He told me: Oh, now I remember there was such a communal, some there, I do not know, Sidor Palych lived, I came to see him, he has a chest of drawers, nearly all of them documented, as he said. How would photographs from the past.
IR. That is, he talked about some of the actual scenes from life, as a source of inspiration?
RP. We often talked about it, probably the most successful Soviet period after, probably ... well, of course, meeting with Nana is another, but when he taught at the Institute of Distance culture, I do not know what was called, I do not remember [ZNUI], it is very took a lot of amateur artists. You could even say involved art brut. And several of his students they did was amazing. He often talked about it, it is open, its proximity to the Soviet theme. In particular, he praised Leonova, this remarkable. Not an astronaut. Leonov, then again he was, he even gave me a job, but it described the cat that had to be thrown.
IR. Roginsky was able to engage in dialogue not only with the classics, but also his own disciples.
RP. You know, the best show, incidentally, about which we spoke with Roginsky happened in my life in Russia, the Soviet Union, is "Glory to Labor". I do not remember what year it was in 70-some 72, perhaps a year, 71 maybe. Health Exhibition, and six months she must have behaved, well, because the people. Because the people drew. In the Manege. All Arena. I do not know how many there were artists: there was Leonov, there were some colonels, and always pointed out, who drew this picture - the teacher, they do not know, tractor, Tralee Wali. Colonels all painted the same still life: is the brandy and Lemon cut into a plate. Or a plate on the right, or a plate on the left. Or have an opened bottle of brandy in the glass of brandy, or unopened, liqueur-glass waiting when poured. Wonderful! 20, probably, colonels, drawing the same still life. Leonov, of course, shook his great work, they do not know "the farm's future." That and, of course, it was also the starting point at Roginsky. As said, Glinka, we only arrange the music and the people composing. Naturally! Absolutely. Indeed. I absolutely agree with Glinka.
IR. But in this case, all the work Roginsky in Paris, they seem to ...
RP. They are popular. Absolutely. And Roginskii himself - People people, with all his mind there, education picturesque course. Of course, he is a man of the people, of course. I have never seen any of snobbery, or any ... Pride was, he certainly knew the value of his work, of course, he saw his talent, he saw how it differs, I think he considered himself, I am sure for sure quite rightly, one of the biggest artists in the world significance.
IR. Is there something that you do not accept it as a painter? You talk about a shock that you experienced when you saw his work.
RP. All agree. He's just like my mother. Honestly. All agree, I love all the work Roginsky, I do not know a single mediocre work in Roginsky. None. I am always critical attitude to painting, but ... Roginsky - my favorite artist.
IR. The most favorite.
RP. Well, not my favorite, but it is just in the repertoire of artists, sorry for the militaristic comparison, in the same group of artists that I incredibly expensive.
IR. Returning to the theme of the Russian artist in the west, as you think he found his place?
RP. No. No. But he did not try. He specifically did not try. In recent years he tried ... but the French did not understand him completely. The French love to tut-tut shu-shu, something like intererchikov. That kind of work that I try out offer. I think. I was guided to make such bye-bye shu-shu, but with humor. Then his life is unclear. Russian for them - is vodka, balalaika, a drunken gypsies in a restaurant. Basically. To them, this life is incomprehensible. They do not know Russian, they are not particularly interested.
IR. Reverse the question. They could not understand this life, was whether Roginsky understand this life, the French?
RP. He was not interested in French life, as I think. I think they are showing some of Nana familiar French, who loved even Mishin painting, or to love, something to buy. I do not know, I'm not sure what they were really French, first. Maybe they were people with some oriental experience, which is settled easily. I just could not see them ever. But I remember that Misha once approvingly of someone spoke, that's what good people, ta-ta-ta, la-la-la. But it somehow ended quickly. And then I did not hear about them. Most of his friends were the same immigrants, well, I do not know who had come earlier, maybe later ...
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IR. But somehow France had an impact on Roginsky-man on Roginsky-artist?
Oja. Roginskii praised paint. Although he worked as industrial paints in the banks, just the color ... They quickly went dry, and then, Misha was also incredibly prolific, a lot of work. Sometimes it works just climbed, it is something I do not know grounded, some nonsense. They have not had time to dry, and he wrote about on the wet canvas, wrote these very alkyd paints in large banks. He is also a lot of color did not have to look here what color. In recent years he has already written acrylic ... While there, he wrote too shelves acrylic. But again, it was out of acrylic jars, not from the tubes. He always bought the paint in the chandlery. And the hand he had always some such dried, gnarled, he, in my opinion, they are never washed. I loved when they are scratched, leaving a trail texture.
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IR. You can talk about some evolution in his work?
Oja. Of course, of course, he went through a lot of periods, I remember his abstract work, though he always said that he could not draw an abstract work. Until the end.
IR. Why?
Oja. I do not know, is the property of his head. But he has been working very close to abstraction. I do not know whether you have seen or not, that bastard, Lisa Lavrova, I think, have some remaining work there any vegetables, fruits, relief he had work. Have you seen it? they are very abstract. I remember when he came to the exhibition in Lavrov
IR. Cabbage, carrots?
Oja. Yes, cabbage, carrots. I remember, I had not yet decided what it is. I mean, look, you become a little abstract artist? He says, no, look, look, what abstraction, I can not paint abstraction. I do not want, I can not, finally, do not want.
IR. Why?
Oja. Well, why? If he turns out well. But he never studied the abstraction, frankly.
IR. I think that it is connected even so, he studied abstraction - not studied, he still looked at the abstract artists. It's not that, but it sort of, so to speak, the perception of the world.
Oja. Probably. Well, I'm telling you, he painted his self-portrait. And because he considered himself quite real and earthly, his work on earth in fact, he went, he did not fly as Kabakov, as I do not know ... like Chagall. He walked the earth and therefore, perhaps, it was all much closer.
IR. Walked the earth and touched objects. He has a very tactile with each subject is the ontological presence is, yes? Like everyone, here again.
Oja. He is a singer stools, he singer pans there any, dummies.
IR. But it is also a singer people.
Oja. Yes, of course. Tormented by some people with huge problems. It is all people with problems. Happy people he does not. Not find anywhere else. Think of at least one painting where a man would smile. Maybe there is where they are idiots, so I have a job, he did, Nana it photographed, quite a fool, brushed his teeth, and very happy. Again, this story with brushing. He got out all his teeth, had to pay some huge amount, so sealed, tore out the new set. I do not know, put or not, but his smile was not cracked.
I remember, I gave an exhibition, when bought the apartment, the walls were empty, so clean, sterilnenkaya, all these lights burning, the lighting was good, I say, Misha, come here will make you a private show. Moreover, he even had customers some French, Rich, even gallerist was, so we hung the picture, he brought a roll rolled roll.
IR. And as he talked with people on opening day?
Oja. Yes. mumbled something, boo-boo-boo. No, well, people who came, they were competent. And gallery owners really liked this show, but he did not Misha suggested. Perhaps he realized that he had no customers for this work. And he just, in my opinion, nothing bought.
IR. You called Roginsky monumental, why?
Oja. But the fact is that when you look at his figure, for the people that depicted, it is the people, because all the characters are a bit impersonal, they do not have pronounced ... well painted nose, eyes, nothing in the eyes there, as rule. This figure is such a monumental painting and so this crowd, which he drew, it always creates some kind of situation, all is clear: one is in that position, the other - in this, the third is undergoing, the pen where I do not know ... this is always Roginsky drew a crowd, and ...
IR. That is not the crowd, and the situation.
Oja. Well, of course, well, the crowd creates a situation in principle. However, the situation creates a crowd.
IR. You know, and I entirely different to read. For me Roginskii - he was a humanist.
Oja. Of course, the humanist.
IR. A humanist in the sense that even this crowd, even those people with unregistered persons, people, written back to the viewer, for me, each character - it's a distinct personality. After all, they are at each other not like. Each carries its own charge, and his personality.
Oja. He was respectful to the shabby people, this upivshemusya, I do not know, and aging people.
IR. Just my feeling that the notion of the crowd for Roginsky not exist.
Oja. I'm probably totally wrong to hold a parallel, but it is like Giotto, you know, there's figure, figures, figures, all eyes are the same any ... Chinese there, I do not know. There is. And they all look like a Giotto, absolutely, and they are faceless because of this, absolutely. Here is the crowd here, in principle, they do not have any grimaces, nothing, absolutely with the same faces. But this crowd creates a sort of situation ... Well, there, of course, the biblical story is that everything is clear. But it is clear exactly what drew Roginsky, because I, for example, lived, I found here is quite gray Soviet era.
IR. Okay, but while talking about the artist's work outside of his situation in life, regardless of his age? You say Roginsky clear to me, because I lived in Russia at this time. I have not lived in Russia at that time, and I still understandable. Why?
Oja. Well, because you've read the book, because your dad told me.
IR. Well, well. And to some people who did not read books, how to perceive, imagine Roginsky in the museum in 100 years. How do I perceive that this work can tell a man who did not live in this reality and did not know her?
Oja. It is hard to say (laughs). Well, no, I just think that the work Roginsky, they will push to the study of the time in which he lived. Well, no, there is such a very bright, despite what this topic is amazing painting! Brave. Powerful painting. She touches, I think, 100 years later, after 200 people who will look at this picture. He asks about who this was Roginskii and read your work on this subject.
IR. Does it work to hurt the man who beyond anecdotal, outside the plot level?
Oja. Sure. Man who loves painting.
IR. For you Roginsky, rather, colorist, or rather schedule?
Oja. Colorist. No, of course, first of all, he a painter. Graphs as such, but that's the book that he designed the ... I wrote some tales of his time, he enjoyed, he decided to illustrate them. Rozanov, wife Sinyavsky, she is pulled, tugged, and then it all died the whole thing. Unfortunately. Now Nana is going to print it, I gave her the illustrations.
IR. What book was supposed to be?
Oja. This is such silly stories, too, from the Soviet way of life, of course, they are close to his subject to Harms, Harms, because I was shocked as well as Roginsky. I read the first time ... So I read what was published in the Literary Gazette, little such fragmentiki then, but for a German publisher, a university, at one time issued a more comprehensive, this volume with a preface in English.
IR. Hence, the stories were yours, and illustrations Roginsky?
Oja. Yes, there are tales such stishochki. And I think that it just grazed the Soviet themes of these stories. I am in the poems and prose, trying to keep the ultimate realism. Well, of course, I'm there fantasizing, but ... I draw some everyday situations, because I too grew up in communal apartments. But they were not such a grim, because we have always been very good neighbors.
IR. Are you invited him?
Oja. Nothing, no, that he proposed.
IR. To make such a joint project. And as you worked, how it happened?
Oja. I gave him texts and he illustrated them, that's all.
IR. You are somehow talked among themselves?
Oja. Nothing was discussed absolutely. Why I will discuss the work of maestro? (laughs) I do not have rights.
IR. Do you think he would like a tragic sense of the world was?
Oja. OH, tragi-comedy, of course. Ha, ha, hee-hee. Always the same way, sadomasochism, tragedy. BDSM is. Deliberately to add. Perhaps without these tragedies, he could not write. Maybe he needed just such a terrible Soviet medium gray-brown-crimson.
IR. But in this case, to emigrate, to go abroad ...
Oja. And he took with him, everything, everything, all their cultural baggage he took in his head there, in the heart.
IR. So you think that emigration did not change anything.
Oja. No, of course, she added, he often went to museums, it was some day, I think, Monday, I think, on Monday, he went to museums for exhibitions and so on. Sometimes I met him in some галерейках. But he spat almost always, when we said: "My God, my God, what crap, my God!"
IR. Well, on contemporary art.
Oja. I must say that the whole time I've lived here for 30 years, I do not know if I have any battened down criteria for such a little selfish, I Roginsky loved, yet some people, but I have very few people happy. Luckily, he found Aliskevicha, it is not the most, of course, outstanding gallery, it is somewhere in Britain on the sidelines, and not fashionable. And there very few walks and generally walked, but Aliskevich understood in the art and wholeheartedly supported Roginsky, and I think there is even something to sell.
IR. And you have a lot of work Roginsky, you bought them or gave it to you. How did it happen?
Oja. No-no-no. I first of all, never allowed himself to give, I knew that Roginsky every penny is needed, I was already quite firmly stood on my feet, moreover, was the nouveau riche. No, we Roginskii often went to bars, I was treating it, and so on and so forth. I will never forget, I have a sick wife, Dominique, she has gone crazy, and I chose lyuksoterapiyu. I tried to psychiatrists, it was closed, it is impossible. And I thought: Well, it was time to stir, to drive to restaurants ... And just Roginskii appeared. I mean, Mich, go to a good pub, a lot of money and gulnem. And I like the nouveau riche do not remember what we ate, but something very expensive, have brought a map I looked at the prices and choose the wine for 2 000 francs a bottle, it was expensive. For 2000 francs per month you can live like this. And they brought a bottle, then the waiter tried to ... I say: put on the table. Misha took the bottle, poured himself a wine glass full of water, took the case, then, for Doshu for health (Dosha - This is my wife, Dominique), made a face-glug-glug-glug-glug-all drained. Blinked. He expected that it sturdy. But I really liked it, in Russian, cool.
IR. You say he was not a lover of wine, yes?
Oja. I do not know, no, he, I think he drank sometimes, in a cafe a couple of times, maybe he ordered. I do not know why, Côte du Rhône, is the most proletarian Cote du Rhône sometimes drank. But in general, of course, he loved the sturdy, vodka. Vodka, as far as I remember, he saw a white, all yellow with grass - a bourgeois excesses were for him. He destroyed every way that bourgeois.
IR. But returning to the work that you have bought from Roginsky.
Oja. I bought his work and bought two or three people work, which he sold earlier. Because some people bought the work because I bought them. I am for them was a little authority. Then they poviseli them on the walls. And they realized that they will not fit. Maybe the wife is not accepted, people are not accepted. Except this Pole. I do not remember whether he was art critic, a good Pole. He was older Roginsky, in any case looked much older.
IR. Tell us please about the pictures that you have bought. People who listen to it, do not see what you have hanging on the walls.
Oja. I bought a series of railway, transport. Then he bought these fires when burning kettles, burning rangette, they are all perfectly reproduced by a professional photographer, who was a week ago. At Nana is amazing photographs. Then I bought a lot of shelves, which I liked and always likes to ... riddles, except for bottles, of course. Bottles I also colored some bottles, which in nature do not exist - yellow, red. Maybe because I love the bottle, I do not know (laughs), I was very moved by those they work. That this officer, I am very fond of.
IR. Officer under the bridge?
Oja. Officer under the bridge. Well, no, the fact is that my dad was military, and when I was little, we traveled a lot for the garrison, his father taught ballistics, he was the gunner. And I remember when we moved to Moscow, I was struck by the fact that large numbers of civilians, wear coats, hats, some without form. What is it! I asked: Dad, why are not they form? He said, you know, and they are not military. I was shocked. I dreamed, of course, be a sailor.
IR. What is the first work that you have bought from Roginsky?
Oja. I immediately bought a few. Trains, with toothbrushes, the officer, kettle, works ten I guess I just bought.
IR. And what you were guided in the choice of work?
Oja. Like-dislike. I like them, I bought them. I absolutely did not anticipate that Roginsky will cost millions. Just like a great artist. I did not bargain with any of the artists from whom I bought, never. I think it is humiliating - or I buy. Or I do not buy. Roginskii I sold it all for a very divine and costs, and then I was glad that they got some money, although I think at that time Nana was working like crazy. And they already had some money in order to live a normal life. In any case, from Roginsky I never heard that there is no matter what. He such complaints are not allowed.
IR. This is generally not characteristic of him was.
Oja. Yes, I think that the less money the better, even it was for him.
IR. Have you ever been in his studio on the Place des Fêtes?
Oja. At the Place des Fêtes never was. He invited me many times when we met, but I have other things to do were already some troubles with taxes, dark period, then I drank like crazy, every third day, drunk as a pig, mug, I had the red, some breakdown at all. I tried something to draw. Then I went to Berlin, then Cologne. While we Roginskii not met. I have always had a liking for him and rejoiced at his success, when he learned that Misha will be the exhibition in the Tretyakov Gallery, where it has come true, I jumped to the ceiling. It is fortunate that it happened during his life. Then it is very appreciated by many artists.
IR. Do you think that his value?
Oja. Connoisseurs of art, of course, his value will certainly consider it one of the most. Perhaps the most prominent in Russia. Nana finds its most outstanding, I agree with her. I let it stay on the second (laughs). I'm kidding, of course ..
IR. If you wrote a book about him, so how would you imagine it, what would you consider it necessary to tell about Roginsky?
Oja. You know, I'm afraid that I would not write a book about Roginsky, because I do not know how to ask questions so as you so accurately. But something would be written. But I have a poem:
A distinguished gentleman, Mr. Roginsky
Once with his wife walked.
Because of the unhappy thoughts
Cigarettes lost.
Honey, at this hour
Do not buy me a Gauloises.
Uttered a loud pan Roginsky,
proclaiming to the ecstasy ...
Something like that
IR. You read him this poem?
Oja. No, I did not read it, Nanko I read. And maybe read. Well this is a joke. But he is good to my literature, if only because we wanted to illustrate the book.
IR. Well, again, that would be important to say, mention Roginsky?
Oja. Do not miss him very much. Honestly.
IR. Another question that I wanted to ask. Can work Roginsky bind to any movement in the direction of the 20 th century art, art in general?
Oya .... Well, this postsotsrealizm, I think. Left MOSH there something slips sometimes, not, of course, absolutely. Roginskii - Mount Qomolangma. Well, of course, is, even there Popkova there, perhaps we could take with his permission Cubism allowed. Roginskii most deeply into this subject came in, without any foolishness. We Roginsky have humor, but he has never been any abuse of these people, whom he drew. He did not consider them fools. Of course, those works, matchboxes, burning kettles, they are the closest to pop art. Russian pop-art, and Misha swore and swore repeatedly he did, although I have not ever asked: So are you really the father of Russian pop-art?, I never asked this question. Because it was already clear and understandable, he always said that I had never seen a pop-up artists ...
IR. And as he himself belonged to that statement?
Oja. To pop art? I remember I bought ... how much I had ... five Warhol, I bought flowers Warhol, and he says: Yes he is flirting, flirt! By him he treated negatively. From the pop artists whom he loved something? probably nobody.
IR. But Lichtenstein?
Oja. Liechtenstein Nana can not stand. I do not know why. I somehow do not remember that he praised pop artists. Terribly far they have gone from the people.
IR. I would still talk to you, through your own, through your vision, the situation of the Russian artist in the west.
Oja. Sahara. Awful Sahara. Misha did not want to make a career here, he quickly once I realized that is not appropriate and gave up on them. Well, then he had Aliskevich, who treated him well. I think it is worth to interview Aliskevicha. I think Roginskii - postsotsrealist.
IR. Do you think that something fundamental would change if Roginsky not gone?
Oja. I think that he would be painted as ... None. Well, maybe, the shelves would not be. Maybe would have been empty, I do not know. Or conversely, perhaps, to what some outlandish merchandise all this statute. I do not think, frankly. But in Paris there is a very good property, there is very good work. I curse Paris. I can not stand him, frankly, as, probably, and Roginsky. Such vile, bourgeois, a tourist town. Cordial relations are practically no one with whom to start, in my opinion, this is my personal experience. Misha, of course, in Parisian life does not react. Except, perhaps, that's the last Bonnard there and so on. Even those still lifes with scissors, which I saw last, well, quite simple, with a kettle there, yes, it is written in a hundred times better than Morandi, stronger than this same Goethe's Faust.
IR. Yes. Absolute conciseness in art, yes?
Oja. Brilliant written. But these great pictures, they are more realistic, the situation there, my husband eats there, I do not know, some soup, a little boy Grade retention.
IR. And this series of dinners?
Oja. Yes, just brilliant, fantastic. He has not exhausted itself here in this topic. If he was still alive here, is another matter. Then, perhaps, perhaps, he would have approached the French life. He would simply tired of these communal draw. He would become clochards some paint, something else. He liked to draw homeless people, people with problems.
But in general I must say that Roginsky and juices are very close to each other. Right now I have understood it completely.
IR. It is in the works?
Oja. Yes. Sokov also drew inspiration from Russia's life, from the newspapers, where he had some editorials sometimes just visible, very sorry to sell, I have been a lot of juice. But what to do, eat, it must be. But then there is no one left to me the whole thing. We must sell everything in life in good hands.
IR. And tell me, what Roginskii continues to write in the West, Russian subjects, is that this form of expression of nostalgia or what?
Oja. Nostalgia? He never ... no, I remember, he first went to Moscow, worked there, then returned to the boulevards, he had such large canvases. And there are small fragmentiki some boulevards, stunning in color, so it is written, the snow so blue, brilliant! No, he's a great colorist, amazing, was ... when he wanted.
IR. And there were times when not wanted?
Oja. No, well, sometimes it takes two or three colors and creates something ... else. And sometimes he has a color that admire: My God! Impressionists some.
IR. Do you have any favorite work in his art? You saw and said: Why I did not write?
Oja. A no-no-no, I did never could write. I know my place is enough for me. May God draw at least a third of what I planned. Well, no, Roginskii - a real artist, he lived it and nothing more. And when he returned from Moscow, was this series of small photos, Hall of Fame.
IR. Board of Honor, but on the other hand, it is as if such a picture in a picture, minivystavka. There, inside one's own paintings exhibition.
Oja. Yes, yes, yes, quite right, some mug, those-aunt. Any relatives and loved once come to mind. Well, I remember those communal, so it all was. Massive such портретики. In the villages, especially loved the card so then: Vasia in the Army, Aunt Masha in the coffin. Whole life before. And in the middle, as a rule, there is some kind of wedding photography, head to head.
IR. The mosaic of human life.
Oja. Yes, well, not just as an icon. While this is all happening unconsciously, simply by stuffing glass pictures and all. So it. Well, you're reminded just was an exhibition at Aliskevicha long time ago, but already here Roginsky Russian noticed, I remember some guy with a camera shot, I was very happy. In Russia, of course, living mass of admirers, but, unfortunately, not all fans have the money. For Roginsky it was important to still sell in their own environment paintings, because he wanted those people who are worthy of his paintings, bought his work, not just any nouveau riche.
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Nana, it turns out that bookcase (truly knocked me out, especially with gloves, but no, all that you have shown)), the first works written in Paris? Colored bottles - the same time, once you put them together?
Interestingly, the first time seeing the work Roginsky, in addition to shock, surprise, discovery, was feeling "like home", but something has deterred me from this definition when she wrote, and here Yakovleva - "it just like my mother." Hence, non-random sense.
And by the way, I wonder, indeed, whether he liked Chekhov?
Yes, but if it works on paper, whether there is a graphic work?
Nana, it turns out that bookcase (truly knocked me out, especially with gloves, but no, all that you have shown)), the first works written in Paris? Colored bottles - the same time, once you put them together?
Interestingly, the first time seeing the work Roginsky, in addition to shock, surprise, discovery, was feeling "like home", but something has deterred me from this definition when she wrote, and here Yakovleva - "it just like my mother." Hence, non-random sense.
And by the way, I wonder, indeed, whether he liked Chekhov?
Yes, but if it works on paper, whether there is a graphic work?
The earliest work in Paris - quite a striking bottle (1978-78 gg.) Two works - one from the collection of Oleg, the one I bought at the Pole, which he mentions in inervyu, both are written with acrylic on cardboard, dimensions - 74 x 104 and 75,5 x 106.
Then there were shelves of bottles, and then - says Oleg, "the hills", that is quite vague, more monochrome.
All these shelves painted acrylic on paper, but must confess that I find it hard to regard them as graphics, for me is painting on paper, and graphics with virtually no Roginsky, just working.
.
After the shelves there were works that I showed at the personal exhibition at the NCCA in 2005 at the Biennale - landscapes and interiors (there were 2 shelves of those that I posted), they've done a little catalog.
Pink Regiment 109 x 75,5, blue 145 x 111, the size of the third shelf I do not remember and do not know where she is - I was looking for her, the last 107 x 150.
Here are two, the first 102 x 71, two 72 x 92, third from the collection of M. Ershov - 100 x 71.
Chekhov he loved, but Gogol - even more.
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08.09.2008, 21:59
Memoirs of O. Yakovlev Roginsky
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