Ivan Puni - Форум по искусству и инвестициям в искусство

ksenjaru · 13-03-2012, 16:28

Good day! It is very necessary advice on the examination of paintings in Russia Ivan Puni.

This work was bought by a very close friend Artcurial auction in Paris in 2006. Provenance it appeared at that time is not controversial, from the collection of prof. Berninger, who created and catalogue raisonné of the paintings Puni.

Buy the work, the buyer is not hurried and checked catalogue raisonné, and only then learned that this work is not in the catalog.
After six years have passed, many correspondences between the buyer and the prof. Berninger. Yes, the picture was actually in his collection, it is a fact. Also, in writing, he is ready to write that he was going to do the second part of the catalog and include the job. But, unfortunately, it does not solve the problem. All auctions are now saying that the prof. Berninger is a very old age, not the fact that it will create the second volume of the catalog. And even if you have time, confidence in this directory may not be called.

The owner of this painting at an impasse. So, if the work is not in the catalog, so it does not sell?

My question is simple, there are no experts in Russia who can make the examination and whose opinion is respected among the customers. Communicating with professionals auctions are all confident that the work is not fake, but the sale can not take because of the absence in the catalog above mentioned professor.

I would be grateful for any advice or idea what to do with this work further

OlegTsi · 13-03-2012, 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksenjaru; 2022461 '

work is not fake , but the sale can not take because of the absence in the catalog above mentioned professors .

The matter is more complicated. The problem is not that it is not reasonable in the catalog . This picture , probably, has no relation to the works of Ivan Puni . Ask your high resolution photos and drop them again.

John Preston · 13-03-2012, 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksenjaru

My question is simple, there are no experts in Russia who can make the examination and whose opinion is respected among the customers.

Naturally, these experts have ... Center. Academician Grabar and his NINE . P.M.Tretyakova , I think, will be able to answer the questions you raised ...

Just no picture, no story itself , at first glance , do not have a successful outcome ...

ksenjaru · 13-03-2012, 16:47

Here is a link to the picture where have all the information.

http://www.artcurial.com/en/asp/full...refno=10172404

John Preston · 13-03-2012, 16:50

[QUOTE=ksenjaru; 2022521] Here's a link to the picture which has all the information.

Zürich, Kunsthaus, "Chagall, Kandinsky, Malevitch und die Russische Avantgarde - Iwan Puni (1882-1956) Werke und Dokumente (1915-1919) aus dem Puni-Archiv, Zürich"

As I understand it, the picture was exhibited at the exhibitions ...
We must look for exhibition catalogs ...

ksenjaru · 13-03-2012, 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Preston

Zürich, Kunsthaus, "Chagall, Kandinsky, Malevitch und die Russische Avantgarde - Iwan Puni (1882-1956) Werke und Dokumente (1915-1919) aus dem Puni-Archiv, Zürich"

As I understand it, the picture was exhibited at the exhibitions ...
We must look for exhibition catalogs ...

The catalog shows it is, but again does not solve the problem, the catalog of 1999

John Preston · 13-03-2012, 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksenjaru

The catalog shows it is, but again does not solve the problem, the catalog of 1999

Still better than nothing ...

And for the same amount sold to work - it just must to be the original ...
<! - ~ 1 ~ ->

ksenjaru · 13-03-2012, 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Preston

Of course, these experts have ... Center. Academician Grabar and his NINE . P.M.Tretyakova , I think, will be able to answer the questions you raised ...

Thanks for the advice , but in Europe they say there is no expert on the Avant Gard in Russia. I will not quote the letter of auction houses , but the reason for refusal to sell is not the authenticity of the work, and the problem with its provenance.

Just no picture, no story itself , at first glance , do not have a successful outcome ...

Honestly , for 6 years I would like to have put a full stop , let it be a positive , albeit negative , but the result .

Added after 4 minutes

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Preston

Still better than nothing ...

And for the same amount sold to the job - she's just must to be the original ... <! - ~ 1 ~ ->

I like your positive, you would know that the owner is now thinking about our Vanguard .

And say, Tretkovka confirm if that resolves anything or just add another piece of paper and a folder to work?

qwerty · 13-03-2012, 17:25

Unfortunately the chances of that is Puni , almost none. I have a couple of years ago, wrote on the forum about the " art" Berningera the last decade and a half . He navydaval tens ( if not hundreds ) of positive assessments of false papers , and many were not even remotely similar to the work of Puni . The work presented here is a clumsy variation on the theme of work Puni second half of the tenth of the last century .

Кирилл Сызранский · 13-03-2012, 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Preston; 2022511"

Marshall Center . Academician Grabar and his NINE . P.M.Tretyakova , I think, will be able to answer the questions you raised ...

And I think the timing "will be able to answer the questions you raised ."
Thing discussed

Quote:

circa 1917-1918

, the whole dootezdovsky Puni them .
Or if you really in Moscow, to Academician Sarabianov , Dmitry - the author of a monograph on the Puni , an expert is not worse than that Herman and Berninger as well , I think .

13-03-2012, 16:28	Original language: Russian #1
ksenjaru Местный Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 130 Thanks: 41 Thanked 57 Times in 27 Posts Reputation: 114	Ivan Puni Good day! It is very necessary advice on the examination of paintings in Russia Ivan Puni. This work was bought by a very close friend Artcurial auction in Paris in 2006. Provenance it appeared at that time is not controversial, from the collection of prof. Berninger, who created and catalogue raisonné of the paintings Puni. Buy the work, the buyer is not hurried and checked catalogue raisonné, and only then learned that this work is not in the catalog. After six years have passed, many correspondences between the buyer and the prof. Berninger. Yes, the picture was actually in his collection, it is a fact. Also, in writing, he is ready to write that he was going to do the second part of the catalog and include the job. But, unfortunately, it does not solve the problem. All auctions are now saying that the prof. Berninger is a very old age, not the fact that it will create the second volume of the catalog. And even if you have time, confidence in this directory may not be called. The owner of this painting at an impasse. So, if the work is not in the catalog, so it does not sell? My question is simple, there are no experts in Russia who can make the examination and whose opinion is respected among the customers. Communicating with professionals auctions are all confident that the work is not fake, but the sale can not take because of the absence in the catalog above mentioned professor. I would be grateful for any advice or idea what to do with this work further Attached Thumbnails

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13-03-2012, 16:47	Original language: Russian #4
ksenjaru Местный Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 130 Thanks: 41 Thanked 57 Times in 27 Posts Reputation: 114	Here is a link to the picture where have all the information. http://www.artcurial.com/en/asp/full...refno=10172404

13-03-2012, 16:50	Original language: Russian #5
John Preston Гуру Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Россия, Москва Posts: 3,743 Thanks: 3,809 Thanked 1,854 Times in 969 Posts Reputation: 3694	[QUOTE=ksenjaru; 2022521] Here's a link to the picture which has all the information. Zürich, Kunsthaus, "Chagall, Kandinsky, Malevitch und die Russische Avantgarde - Iwan Puni (1882-1956) Werke und Dokumente (1915-1919) aus dem Puni-Archiv, Zürich" As I understand it, the picture was exhibited at the exhibitions ... We must look for exhibition catalogs ...

13-03-2012, 17:25	Original language: Russian #9
qwerty Гуру Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,213 Thanks: 1,422 Thanked 7,269 Times in 947 Posts Reputation: 5499	Unfortunately the chances of that is Puni , almost none. I have a couple of years ago, wrote on the forum about the " art" Berningera the last decade and a half . He navydaval tens ( if not hundreds ) of positive assessments of false papers , and many were not even remotely similar to the work of Puni . The work presented here is a clumsy variation on the theme of work Puni second half of the tenth of the last century .