Poland insists on the return of the paintings from the Pushkin Museum of Fine

[Ухтомский]

Сообщение от nikolai nesterenko

 
However, VARIOUS belong "to the functions and activities of the NKVD and" as a punitive body "and" in the years of severe tests - it is impossible. This cry ruined soul slain.

You want to say that the NKVD during the war, deal exclusively with the murder of innocent souls?
And who is suppressed desertion, struggled with espionage and sabotage, banditry and betrayal, carried out reconnaissance and sabotage operations on enemy territory.

[ВЯЧЕСЛАВ]

Сообщение от Pavel

Why do not you know that the Germans sank all the ships from the Soviet Odessa with evacuees and without.

During the evacuation of Odessa, was sunk by enemy aircraft, only one transport "Bolshevik" all people with whom have been withdrawn to other vessels.
Another vessel "Lenin" which was evacuated civilians, blown up by its same as mine the captain was not given a lane through minefields (whether because of military secrets, whether by sloppiness). Besides all beacons were extinguished at the rate of sudna.Utonuli almost all because support was snyato.Etot ship was from Odessa, and was crowded with refugees, mostly Jews.

[nikolai nesterenko]

by the way:
Louvre will return to Egypt five disputed items
 
Five ancient Egyptian artifacts that are in the collection of the Louvre, will be returned to Egypt. On Friday, October 9, 2009, said the Ministry of Culture of France. All the exhibits were stolen from a tomb in the Valley of the Kings and sold to the museum. Because of them, the Egyptian authorities have threatened to cease Louvre relations, in particular, the suspension of the museum expedition in Luxor, said AFP.
The fact that Egypt has taken tough measures against the Louvre, became known on October 7. Zahi Hawass, head of the Egyptian Supreme Council of Antiquities, said the exhibits were stolen in 1980, and when they got into the Louvre, the museum staff knew about their illegal origin. The same day, Minister of Culture of France Frederic Mitterrand said that his department is ready to return the disputed items, but clarified that they were legally purchased in 2000 and 2003. Only the fall of 2008 the museum was suspected that the origin of the exhibits may be questionable.

The decision to transfer artifacts to Egypt request the convening of a special commission, which determined the legality of restitution claims
Source: Lenta.ru on 09/10/2009

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Сообщение от Ukhtomsky

You want to say that the NKVD during the war, deal exclusively with the murder of innocent souls?
And who is suppressed desertion, struggled with espionage and sabotage, banditry and betrayal, carried out reconnaissance and sabotage operations on enemy territory.

question is not exclusive or nonexclusive. none of you listed are not whitewashes persecution, torture and murder of tens of millions of people these glorious "bodies"

[Ухтомский]

Сообщение от nikolai nesterenko

question is not exclusive or nonexclusive. none of you listed are not whitewashes persecution, torture and murder of tens of millions of people these glorious "bodies"

I'm not trying to whitewash or dirty, as expressing an objective point of view.
By the atrocities of the NKVD listed you can treat only sharply accusingly. So all and relate. But do not exaggerate the number of victims.
Suppression of desertion, the struggle against espionage and sabotage, banditry and betrayal, conducting reconnaissance and sabotage operations on enemy territory could often do without the use of punitive measures. These punitive measures against another.
So it appears that

Сообщение от Ukhtomsky

You can have different attitudes to the functions and activities of the NKVD as a punitive body

The debate on the subject dropped.

[Кирилл Сызранский]

Сообщение от Ukhtomsky

the struggle against espionage and sabotage

NKVD effectively fought with espionage. The suspects are in it confessed during interrogation to work right at all razvetki world, but at the same time that they dug an underground tunnel from London to Baghdad and were preparing an attempt on Stalin ...

[Тютчев]

Сообщение от nikolai nesterenko

if your question is addressed to me personally, I give no reason to, because Neither I nor my ancestors had not enriched themselves by plundering (assignment) of another's property. moreover, have lost all of its 1929 National Patrimony obtained how? This is a policy or morality?

If we follow your logic, the museum's collections can not be in principle. Museum collections of all countries are composed of items that once belonged to someone. In the history of any country had enough and turns of events, which, if desired, can be regarded as legal cases. History of Russia in this sense is not unique. It should be noted that Russia has never acquired the museum exhibits through wars of conquest and plunder, in contrast to Western countries.
         As happened after the 17 - year, here too not all unique. Consider the fact that there is some justice in the fact that the elite is not able to provide an adequate standard of living of its people, deprived of all, including his property. Once the property becomes popular, it became the museums and exhibits including. Walk, for example, the Louvre, a Confounding this issue, and you will understand everything. It always has been, and not only in Russia but in other countries. And there is a direct correlation between the degree of injustice and humiliation, and consequences for the elites.

[nikolai nesterenko]

Сообщение от Tjutchev

If we follow your logic, the museum's collections can not be in principle. Museum collections of all countries are composed of items that once belonged to someone. In the history of any country had enough and turns of events, which, if desired, can be regarded as legal cases. History of Russia in this sense is not unique. It should be noted that Russia has never acquired the museum exhibits through wars of conquest and plunder, in contrast to Western countries.
         As happened after the 17 - year, here too not all unique. Consider the fact that there is some justice in the fact that the elite is not able to provide an adequate standard of living of its people, deprived of all, including his property. Once the property becomes popular, it became the museums and exhibits including. Walk, for example, the Louvre, a Confounding this issue, and you will understand everything. It always has been, and not only in Russia but in other countries. And there is a direct correlation between the degree of injustice and humiliation, and consequences for the elites.

Forgive me, but I could not see in my previous statements of the logic to which you refer: "... the museum's collections can not be in principle. I think only that the issue of return of cultural property should be discussed and resolved. not spend in this sense, no differences between Russia, Belarus and someone hated the West. complexity of the problem, in my opinion, does not mean that it should not be addressed at the political and museum levels.
I just can not agree that "there is some justice in that elite is not able to provide an adequate standard of living of its people, deprived of all, including his property." such general provisions may lead to conclusions more radical, for example. deprivation of life (after imuschestom, and why-not?)

in the Louvre is passed, but that really nodding at the Louvre, may take a closer example: the Pushkin Museum, for example., including collection of Impressionists, Gauguin, dr.kollektsii, alienated from legitimate owners, napr.Morozovyh. Incidentally, this topic was discussed briefly at the site, I think the refusal of Ms. direkttrissy add indication who these pictures belong to the past. The heirs did not propose /do not nominate a property pritenzy!

[Pavel]

Сообщение от Cyril Syzransky

NKVD effectively fought with espionage. The suspects are in it confessed during interrogation to work right at all razvetki world, but at the same time that they dug an underground tunnel from London to Baghdad and were preparing an attempt on Stalin's ...

You were present?
I wonder how the Poles have ordered these paintings had seized the city, then German, yet the Poles were the Silesian region completely destroyed with a plant, though it was inconvenient to the army, but they did. He was freed Krakow and prevented its destruction ...
NKVD organs were fighting with the bandits, that they kiss or something.

[nikolai nesterenko]

Сообщение от Pavel

You were present?
I wonder how the Poles have ordered these paintings had seized the city, then German, yet the Poles were the Silesian region completely destroyed with a plant, though it was inconvenient to the army, but they did. He was freed Krakow and prevented its destruction ...
NKVD authorities fought with the bandits, that they kiss or something, what nonsense freeze.

That's the view of who "was there" and who kept the Lord for the evidence:

"... And the jarring hypocritical babble. That's another technique designed to mislead, to cover sheep skin unflagging willingness to suppress, destroy, kill, if only there and the shadow of the threat ... power of the Kremlin oligarchy. How to talk about good and justice, not renouncing to the bloody haze, heirs Dzerzhinsk? ... Continuing persistently called slander any mention of the atrocities of the past decades? Refusing to judge their "criminals against humanity"? Would you believe a thief, at the time hid the knife, that he and signs that full of brotherly feelings? "
O. Volkov. Dive into the darkness, Vol. "Eksmo, M., 2008, str.277

[ВЯЧЕСЛАВ]

Сообщение от Pavel

What are you laughing at? What is this belibirda?

24 September 1941. Kiev.Dom Ginzburg
Almost a hundred years ago, slightly above the current Independence Square - on-site hotel "Ukraine" was the first in Kiev, one-story "skyscraper" dom.V early twentieth century, when Kiev coverage of this building fever, affluent homeowners are thinking about the construction of housing giants. And in the years 1910-1912. on their own land (an area of 2,036 sq. acres) located between the streets of the Nikolaev (modern Gorodetsky) and Institute in the former manor Mehring (estate number 14, 16 and 18) known Kiev construction contractor (also known as "King of the contractors' ), the first guild merchant Lev Ginzburg built 11-storey building. Building exercise their own firm Ginzburg.
The project was developed in 1910 by architects F. Odessa Troupyanskim and A. Minkus. And since the beginning of the twentieth century was characterized by the massive spread of Art Nouveau architecture, in the same style was built and this building. According to the draft, it was resolved as a U-shaped building-block with a large internal courtyard. Because of the steep topography of the street Institutska was different storeyed house - the street side at the top - 8 floors and the lower part - 9. With the sides (from the streets of the Nikolaev) house had 11 floors and towered over the building of the Hotel Continental on five floors.
Construction of the house, like all other buildings in the neighborhoods of the former Mering garden, was conducted in a very unfavorable geological and hydrological conditions using the latest construction technologies. On the construction of the house took about 12 million bricks, and the cost of construction amounted to 1.5 million rubles.
In the apartment house accommodated 94 large apartments, more than 500 rooms (ceiling height was 4 meters) and shops on the ground floor. At the bottom of the site was 2-storey residence of the Lev Borisovich. "From the balconies of the upper floors of the skyscraper opens a wide view of the Old City with its ancient churches, from here you can also observe that in clear weather almost the whole city with a bird's eye" "
Above and grandiose in it at the time was not and it is not surprising that the people of Kiev called him a "Ginzburg skyscraper. Same age as the infamous "Titanic" (1911), tenement house, like an ocean liner, as if floating on the boundless sea of urban rooftops, courtyards, streets and alleys. Eleven floors of Kreshchatik and convenient location on the edge of the plateau Crypt, visually made a new building is much higher.
The famous artist Alexander Murashko in collaboration with his Sister-Anne Krueger-Prahovo the fall of 1918 opens on the top floor of the house Ginzburg's "art studio Murashko, in which drawing, painting and sculpture at the same time accommodated up to a hundred people.
In Soviet times, this house (Institutskaya then called "Street 25 th of October), nationalized and turned into a communal, remained the tallest building in the city for three decades.
During the war in 1941 the house Ginsburg suffered the same fate that was destined Kreshchatik NKVD officers and the entire central part of Kiev.

24 September 1941 on the main street, occupied five days ago, Kiev, began to explode at home, under the ruins of the deaths, not only Germans, but also the civilian population of Kiev.
«have been massively used radio-controlled explosive devices (bombs, exploding on the radio from a distance - up to 400 km.). Preparatory work was carried out in strict secrecy, however, the Kyiv residents quickly learned what it was. But they were unaware of the far-reaching intentions and its military, in fact, held hostage. Thus, according to the recollections of old residents in the famous cellars of Kiev "skyscraper" - home Ginsburg Street. Institutional, 16-18 explosives in wooden boxes were secret police from his building across the street (later the October Palace, the International Center of Culture and Arts, and now Kinopalace), explaining that they seem to perepryatyvayut archives. The operation of mining Colonel Alexander Goldovich (Chief Corps of Engineers, 37 Army, defending Kiev. After the war, Lieutenant-General, lived in Moscow). "

Now place the magnificent buildings protruded formless frame, not be restored.
The blasts 24-27 September 1941 such houses were destroyed:

1) Kreschatik, 28 /2 (with a store Detsky Mir),
2) Kreshchatik, 30 /1 (hotel "Spartacus"),
3) Kreschatik, 26 (Post Office)
4) Kreshchatik 15 (radioteatr)
5) Proreznaja, 5
6) Proreznaja, 10,
7) Pushkin, 1 (House of Scientists)
8) Pushkinskaya, 6,
9) Shevchenkivskiy prov., 1,
10) Institutskaya, 14,
11) Institutskaya, 16-18 (home Ginsburg),
12) Olginskaya, 3
13) Olginskaya, 7 /26,
14) Architect Gorodetsky, 7 (circus)
15) Architect Gorodetsky, 5 (hotel "Continental")
16) pl.Franka, 4 (home Dzyakava).

Explosions and fire destroyed the unpaired Khreschatik side of the house number 5 to the area of Bessarabia, the even side - from the modern to the Independence Square Street. Khmelnyckogo; Independence Square - the entire left side; st. Institutskaya - even side by Olginskaya; st. Olginskaya - unpaired side; Sq. Frank - even side; st. Architect Gorodetsky, Stanislavsky, Zankovetskoy - completely; Street. Lutheran - the whole lower part; st. Proreznaya - to Mikhailovsky alley street. Pushkin - completely from Proreznaya to Khmelnyckogo. In these houses have burnt out all the blocks to the ground.

In the 60 th years of the KGB USSR was officially distributed version of the alleged involvement in the bombings left residency in Kiev NKVD of 15 people led by Ivan curls and to blow up "on their own initiative." This was taken into account is not even the fact that it is in Ginsburg house was placed a safe house, which Kudrya preserved left him NKVD of the Ukrainian SSR weapons, valuables, documents and ciphers.
In his book "Two years over an abyss" ( "Two years over a precipice" without the front line of the front. 1965 collection of short stories.) Described this event. For legalization curls in Kiev after the retreat of the Red Army, he was under the name "Kondratyuk" live at Maria Ilyinichna Gruzdovoy, widow of the repressed in 1937, researcher at Kiev University. She was 28 years, she worked as a teacher and her husband lived with her mother and six-year son in the same house for Institutska, 16-18 ...
"Returning home at the college, Kudrya again looked flat. Everything was in order. Documents, weapons and money were hidden. In the evening he passed first radioman text dispatches ... "
"It was late evening. Khreschatik burned. Under the explosions, in the light of the glow of the exhausted and terror-stricken people before dawn dragged their belongings and children on the slopes and bluffs of the Dnieper. Kudryashov and Maria Ilinichna walking down the street, pushing a baby carriage, in which lay the suitcase and some of the clothes - all that they managed to take with you. They still thought that a day or two back at the college. When we came to the Philharmonic Hall, somewhere behind an explosion. Flame has shot into the sky. "Ginsburg House" no longer existed.
There was no more and weapon codes, passports, money, addresses, products - almost everything that worked so hard picking a Kudrya to work. Everything had to start again ... ".
Reception for the "bodies" is not new - Obelya themselves, even vilify its staff left to certain death in occupied enemy territorii.Mnogie of them died and others had expected an even more terrible fate - the accusation of betrayal and camps.

Сообщение от Pavel

As time is very important to those who bombed. Or do you think the destruction of cities, it does not matter.