The question of the primacy of the expert

[Ignat]

Dear forum members, I would appreciate the advice. While not declare the names and appearances, because I want to first understand whether in principle, to do something.

There is a picture. The owner attributed its оччень popular in Russia market, the 19 th century artist, who drew a lot of bruising huts and birch trees, and it actively forged and counterfeited.
Did you give - through the two gallery owners - to evaluate the two leading experts. One firm said that the forgery. Another, which clearly can not say, but a lot of doubt and a positive sign under examination does not deliver.
This would be possible and finish, but then go BUT:

- One of the experts' second plan (but not the "third", namely, quite sane, as I understand, a man who works in the Tretyakov Gallery) believe that the original;

- A big problem: there are no artist's signature, it vykovyrena. According to the owner, at 19, when the fear of confiscation. If this is too fake, logical, perhaps, to forge a signature than to pick;

- Expert, who spoke about the forgery, suggested that a fake 30-ies. However, the picture in the family of 18, when it left "on deposit" to go to Europe together people with different junk. This statement of the owner. I told her I can not believe for many reasons (age 78 years, the origin, its professional, ethical and cultural status, as defined in the process of long acquaintance, etc. As an illustration: As a direct descendant of PA Viazemsky it has a number of attribution and confirmed by examination of handwritten documents PA, but did not want to sell them for any money, although it is in a dire situation.)

- About the painting itself. I feel ignorant, like the work of the implied author still more than now this cartoon, though it is not a masterpiece. Display photos yet would not like not understanding whether it has meaning. There was somewhere barbaric topic about checking through tykanya needle - jabbed (that's such a bastard I am: shy, no traces. That is, probably more than a hundred years, and it also does not match the version of 30-ies.

Questions:
1. if the leading experts A and B have spoken, whether the word change in the force of circumstances?
2. Does it make sense to apply to other experts (one directly said that if a verdict, he and his brother for the examination will not be), and if so, to what exactly?
3. Can some technical espertiza give enough reliable result, and what it will cost?

As the topic, I think, takskat delicate, you can write and lichku. In lichku can all specify. On the other hand, if the experts say that further discussion is meaningful expose the photo in the subject.

PS Please do not perceive the mention of the plight of the owner in the genre of the recruiting song of beggars in the train. Rather, it is requested to actively take to clarify the issue. Because, if a question of forgery, you need to stop illusions and sell this thing as a fake for the price. But a clear understanding yet.

[Ignat]

Originally Posted by Cyril Syzransky

Here is this moment in history "skolsky "...

As I understand it, this is the main reason for the negative findings. This can be overcome technical expertise? Well, I do not know, there's even written about hand movements ...

[Sandro]

Originally Posted by Cyril Syzransky

Here is this moment in history "skolsky" ...

do not consider this a problem I had with a truncated Burliuk early signature of America's (cut, scraped, so as to remove from Russia) with provinansom and postcards written by Burliuk - do not cause doubts, but rather the client Pts. liked it - "like FENXKI."
Another Korovin was also with vyrezannooy signature. Another well-known portrait of a noblewoman (exhibited at Sotheby's or Christie's, do not remember) Bogdanov-Belsky, was cut down to cut off the signature, because after the Revolution was dangerous to keep on the wall painting of the author, and a portrait of a beloved grandmother ...

I, honestly, after 1 post thought it was Clover, and if this is the one from the movie, the case is more complicated.

[Ignat]

Originally Posted by Cyril Syzransky

Ignat, and that "technical expertise" will? They will say, yes, the signature was. Similar ... Here, I think "C" and then "in" ...
More?

Kirill, I honestly thought that authorship can be reasonably likely to identify and without a signature. Surely there must be pictures of the damaged, just not signed, I do not know, nedosgorevshie: confused:
This is not about the signature, but the style of the hand motor activity (such as motor skills can be identified in smears). About the time of writing. Or without a signature is not worth to say?

[Ignat]

Originally Posted by Sandro

I, honestly, after 1 post thought it was Clover, and if this is the one from the movie, the matter is more complicated.

E. I am far from painting. Maybe this is a very good picture. I just do not understand them Apr. We, the proletarians, obtuse.

[Sandro]

Originally Posted by Ignat

E. I am far from painting. Maybe this is a very good picture. I just do not understand them Apr. We, the proletarians, obtuse.

No, I'm talking about the author, and not about the picture. If your author - the same as prredpolagaemy in the topic, it Pts. serious artist, in terms of attribution in particular. In Grabar, even from their rarely take such names. And you Petrova tried?

[Ignat]

Originally Posted by Cyril Syzransky

You do not "painting without a signature," you "picture with signature harvested.

[color="# 666686"]Added after 1 minute[/color]

I think that has nothing to hope, alas ...

Begins to suspect that you associate me with that dude: D Do not, for God's sake. Englishwoman fouls. I Agent Conclave 300 and Sirius.

However, it is clear that now need to put the photo to all the conversation went. I did not want to do this for one simple reason - those experts, which are discussed, this may look, but I would not want to deprive them of freedom of maneuver. I would prefer to send photos and information lichku, and those who have something to say can be valuable.

While you are right. Believe no one should be.
I would just note that I did not ask any attribution or appreciate, or anything like that. I want to understand it technically possible to assess the degree of reliability of authorship, and how the conclusion of the expert steering final and authentic.

Have you ever read a post with minimal attention.

[sergejnowo]

sure that the forum is the experts do not "lower" than those who have our picture looked.
Plus a dozen participants had AK hands.
Plus dozens of artists, restorers and art historians whose eyes well, just "diamond".
Show a picture and a pair of fragments in good quality and you'll get advice for free.: D

[Ignat]

Originally Posted by Cyril Syzransky

With what dude? You mean it now?

On the one who initiated the topic to which I gave the link in the first post. Hopefully, not very difficult phrase, see?
Just another turns out that you are raving, sorry, of course: D

Originally Posted by Cyril Syzransky

No, no, do not ...

Di I do decide himself. Nothing can?

Originally Posted by Cyril Syzransky

What a joke?
It seems we are talking about serious, I at least ...

How strange you talk about serious ... vague and not on the topic.
I put the questions. Can answer - thanks. No=what Flooding something?

[color="# 666686"]Added after 2 minutes[/color]

Originally Posted by sergejnowo

sure that the forum is the experts do not "lower" than those who have our picture looked.
Plus a dozen participants had AK hands.
Plus dozens of artists, restorers and art historians whose eyes well, just "diamond".
Show a picture and a pair of fragments in good quality and you'll get advice for free.: D

Perhaps you're right. I just can not understand whether it makes sense to show a picture after the leading experts have spoken.

[SergeiSK]

Ignat,
I also came across pictures with cut signatures. In particular Repin, which was then quite successfully attribution. I think in your case, all is not in vain.

Originally Posted by Ignat

1. if the leading experts A and B have spoken, whether the word change in the force of circumstances?

Of course, experts say could change. There Petrov once said, and so far said in This is a joke, I deeply respect him as an expert. So the initial opinion of experts about your picture yet does not mean anything.

Originally Posted by Ignat

2. Does it make sense to apply to other experts

Of course there is! Hope dies last. You can apply in the Russian Museum in St. Petersburg, and in GosNIIR. And the same Peter ...

Originally Posted by Ignat

3. Can some technical espertiza give enough reliable result, and what it will cost?

Maybe still in ArtKonsalting? The forum is their representative under the same nickname. I think it will help, and tell all prices.
And. I think that the expertise now need to give yourself, and not through the gallery owners.