Abstract forever

[fabosch]

Сообщение от Stanislavski

fabosch, all right. But the question is, which I announced: What are the criteria (aesthetic), we come to abstract art? Would it be the same criteria that we normally are guided toward figurative art?

I think that the criteria that makes the viewer to a picture, basically, should not be changed during the transition from figurative to abstract images. Reservation "basically refers to the moment the present situation, in figurative images except formal pictorial criteria we consider and analyze and properly substantive side of the image (the plot, the relationship of subjects, including cultural and contextual allusions, etc., which is rejected some purists, but it certainly is an integral part of any figurative images). And the rest is the same - composition, the overall color palette, pictorial and plastic solutions, textural moments, fine quality, etc. and all these purely formal, it would seem, aspects, too, often bear some burden, referring to the different cultural contexts. This may be the context of not only paintings, but also music, poetry, etc. And this load, I believe, makes the picture more to it than just an image, makes speak our mind, feelings, if you want, and soul. Then we say that this is art, not a "picture of the furniture store," as expressed in iside.
Incidentally, the same Ingarden, writes on the example of Picasso, that combine abstraction with figurative "inserts" creates a special aesthetic quality that combines the advantages of abstraction and figuration, that is, the image fills the additional context.

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Сообщение от Peter

In other words, all attempts to split the nucleus of an atom with a hammer are doomed to failure, but immediately upon impact could such a powerful wave of sound vibrations, which adversely affects the psyche of the inflicting the blow, and causes him to retreat in panic. (In style by art-lover )

Well you, Peter, and turned, I speculated that could mean your message. Several interpretations, but some of them are true, do not even know

[Станиславский]

Сообщение от fabosch

I think the criteria that makes the viewer to a picture, basically, should not be changed during the transition from figurative to abstract images. Reservation "basically refers to the moment the present situation, in figurative images except formal pictorial criteria we consider and analyze and properly substantive side of the image (the plot, the relationship of subjects, including cultural and contextual allusions, etc., which is rejected some purists, but it certainly is an integral part of any figurative images). And the rest is the same - composition, the overall color palette, pictorial and plastic solutions, textural moments, fine quality, etc. and all these purely formal, it would seem, aspects, too, often bear some burden, referring to the different cultural contexts. This may be the context of not only paintings, but also music, poetry, etc. And this load, I believe, makes the picture more to it than just an image, makes speak our mind, feelings, if you want, and soul. Then we say that this is art, not a "picture of the furniture store," as expressed in iside.

All true. But with what tools we evaluate all these components of art works and make judgments about what is good and what is not? Simply put: where is our value-"standard"? Where is this logorifmicheskaya line? I do this to the fact that abstract art is beyond our aesthetic tools.

[fabosch]

Сообщение от Stanislavski

That's right. But with what tools we evaluate all these components of art works and make judgments about what is good and what is not? Simply put: where is our value-"standard"? Where is this logorifmicheskaya line? I do this to the fact that abstract art is beyond our aesthetic tools.

Here I you something I do not understand. The only measure of any unbiased viewer is its audience experience and cultural loading, that is, knowledge of the appropriate contexts, the ability to use their rules, the ability to apply them in relation to a particular image. No universal slide rule does not exist. It is at everyone. Of course in each community can select a group of people with similar slide rules, but there will be a lot of different groups. In every historical period in a particular society, perhaps we could identify their "reference group" with a close slide rules, we can distinguish, for example, a group of "advanced" part of society, their slide rules determines the taste of, say, the professional community, in one way or another influence on the trends in art, the formation of the vectors in the development of aesthetic prepochteny majority, etc. etc. But we are already going away somewhere in the direction of sociological mechanisms Art
And why do you think, "abstract art is beyond our aesthetic tools"? I do not understand, explain, if possible.

[SAH]

Сообщение от "fabosch

Why do you think," abstract art is beyond our aesthetic tools "?
I do not understand, explain, if possible.

Subscribe to the issue.

[Станиславский]

Сообщение от fabosch

Why do you think, "abstract art is beyond our aesthetic tools"? I do not understand, explain, if possible.

Try. To do this, use the analogy with music, art, the most "abstract" available to our perception. Than we do measure our "dignity of a musical work? Those criteria that are developed tradition: the musical form, the wealth of topics and depth of its development, sound and coloring, etc. That is all that dwells in the space of a certain modal-sound context. But the famous concert of Cage, which has not played a single note, it turns out that context. Does this mean that the product Keyzhda is not music, but shioe - art? It seems to me. that the creation of Cage - an extreme degree of abstraction in art, going beyond the limits of our assessment tools. And to appreciate it, you need to "measure" entirely different yardstick.
By the way, did not meet you fully educated and experienced in painting people, "the cognitive field, which was limited to figurative painting, and if it comes to abstraction, they immediately lose the fulcrum?

[artcol]

Сообщение от Stanislavski

the creation of Cage - an extreme degree of abstraction in art

Cage - a conceptualist, the abstraction is not relevant.
Abstraction - a higher form of existence, and Conceptualism - work on the paradigma-ideological field.

[Станиславский]

Сообщение от artcol

Cage - a conceptualist, the abstraction is not relevant. Abstraction - a higher form of existence, and conceptualism - a paradigm.

I think it's just a label. In this connection the question arises, what is - an abstraction? And what is her attitude. and that - no? However, we did respond in this topic.

[artcol]

Сообщение от Stanislavski

I think it's just a label.

Yes, no, no label. Study of mass culture, art and other issues of society in the West attaches great importance - for obvious reasons. There's all laid out, the transmission mode. This is our point of return for moving forward - the avant-garde, but there has long been all chewed and 50 years. So Western scholars in matters of codification can be trusted.

Сообщение от Stanislavski

In this connection the question arises, what is - an abstraction? And what is her attitude. and that - no? However, we did respond in this topic.

Briefly my point of view - here.
By definition, the objective of art:

"The difference between subjective and objective art consists in the fact that in objective art the artist is really" works ", ie doing what is going to do, puts into his work the ideas and feelings that are willing to invest in it. And the action of the artworks to people is absolutely certain: they will take (of course, each according to his level), the same ideas, same feelings, namely - the ones that the artist wanted them to pass. Neither in the works nor in the experiences of objective art there is nothing accidental.

"In subjective art everything is accidental. As I said earlier, here the artist did not create, he has" something is created. "This means that it is in the power of ideas, thoughts and feelings, which he does not understand and over which has no power . They run them and are embodied in different forms. And when they accidentally took one form or another, this form just as accidentally turns on the person some effect depending on his moods, tastes, habits and nature of hypnosis, by which he lives, and so on. There is nothing constant, nothing is certain. In objective art there is nothing indefinite. "

and further

... There is a man's being number one, who lives instincts and feelings, is being number two man, so to speak, being sentimental, emotional, human, human being is number three, being a rationalist, a man of the theoretical mind, and so on. It is quite clear why knowledge should not be far from being. Man number one, two or three - and the reason of his being - can not find the knowledge of man number four, five and above. And what would you get, it will explain this in its own way, downplaying any idea before. the level at which there is myself.

"The same order of division into seven categories should be applied to everything that belongs to the man. There is art number one, that is the art of man number one, imitation and copying, crudely primitive and sensual, such as music and dances of primitive peoples. There art number two - sentimental art, art is number three, intelligent and far-fetched, there must be also an art room four, five and so on.

[fabosch]

Сообщение от Stanislavski

I'll try. To do this, use the analogy with music, art, the most "abstract" available to our perception. Than we do measure our "dignity of a musical work? Those criteria that are developed tradition: the musical form, the wealth of topics and depth of its development, sound and coloring, etc. That is all that dwells in the space of a certain modal-sound context. But the famous concert of Cage, which has not played a single note, it turns out that context. Does this mean that the product Keyzhda is not music, but shioe - art? It seems to me. that the creation of Cage - an extreme degree of abstraction in art, going beyond the limits of our assessment tools. And to appreciate it, you need to "measure" entirely different yardstick.

Now I understand what you are. Well, the Cage is a certain analogy to the iso - for example, black square. And, say, "Ready-Made 's Duchamp - analogue in music - specifically music." Yes, here you are right. Pointless to discuss the composition and pictorial merits Black Square
(Though some of it quite the same deal). Of course it also has composite features, and color-textured subtlety simply by virtue of the fact that this painting. But in Malevich, and Duchamp, and then many others in large quantities from the start of 1960 (Boyce, Land Art, Minimalism, Arte Povera, etc.) there is a new dimension, which in the old slide rule does not present. Well, in impressionist, say, too, was a new shkalka on the ruler, which was not up to them. And Uccello is not it? It now seems that this is not new line appeared, and simply dividing by the scale were added, and at that time it was also a sort of black square.
Yes, now it seems that in the 20 century there was overriding the boundaries of art. Maybe the way it is, but I think this issue goes far beyond the boundaries of the topic and even some scary it is to begin to develop

Сообщение от Stanislavski

By the way, did not meet you fully educated and experienced in painting people, "the cognitive field, which was limited to figurative painting, and if it comes to abstraction, they immediately lost their foothold?

You bet. Yes I do, honestly, not so far away from them, how you would like. Consciousness clings to the figurative as a safe haven - all the time have to fight

Added after 4 minutes

Сообщение от Art-lover

I have with the word "psychoanalysis" of the quagmire subconscious pops the word "surreal." )

And I have "finger reaches for the trigger"

Сообщение от Art-lover

True, perhaps, in the middle: in the abstract surrealism. This is an interesting direction after a short way - in the early 1940's - has been supplanted by abstract expressionism. In my opinion, because for American artists could not pull it (a pity. Somehow I'll return to this issue).

But with this place can be more detail - is anyone out there, "the helper"?

[artcol]

Thought possible, and develop, and to answer your question, Stanislavsky. But I'm afraid no one kerf in the problems of the present art
Threat has recently been in the MSC and talked to a famous artist. He made a name for abstract art, come to certain conclusions in the same vein in which I broadcast here (find a full understanding - to communicate 6 hours), but the weight was unsupportable (70 years of Soviet power), barely survived. Now moved to the figurative, that would break. But work is still great, just not as brutal.