Japanese Prints

[Amateur]

Сообщение от kr555

fakes does not happen, if we understand by that something malicious, and the other values that word we do not have.

Alas, there may have engravings. Not in the sense that the re-engrave, but usually result in a later state of mind earlier (which are valued above), removing added in later states of the elements.

Сообщение от kr555

are copies of printed usually in the same technique, but with the newly carved wooden blocks

No one will ever be able to manually make an absolutely identical copy.

Сообщение от kr555

In the case of love, a layman is unlikely to distinguish late restrayk from the original, with this and museum professionals are confused at times.

Any - later or in vivo - a copy was in the middle of the XIX century is quite easy to distinguish from the original using a mirror stereoscope Helmholtz. Even the difference virtuosic Armand Durand copies from the originals by Rembrandt is in the full sense of the word "obvious." However, it needs to have a notorious original. But because the prints are not made in one copy, then the museum is not a problem. That's to distinguish late imprinted with the same original board of intravital is really easy, but here sometimes it helps to know watermarks and other attributes of paper used for printing with the artist's life. The same problem with late heliogravire, but prized reputation of the company necessarily indicate a print that - geliogravyurnaya copy.

[kr555]

Сообщение от Amateur

Unfortunately, there may have engravings. Not in the sense that the re-engrave, but usually result in a later state of mind earlier (which are valued above), removing the added in the later states of the elements.

Yes, but here it is a question of integrity and competence of the seller, not a fake in the usual sense of the word.

Сообщение от Amateur

No one will ever be able to manually make an absolutely identical copy.

Yes, of course, and here the problem is that not having the original, it is very difficult to say how much it is identical.

Сообщение от Amateur

any - later or in vivo - a copy was in the middle of the XIX century is quite easy to distinguish from the original using a mirror stereoscope Helmholtz. Even the difference virtuosic Armand Durand copies from the originals by Rembrandt is in the full sense of the word "obvious." However, it needs to have a notorious original. But because the prints are not made in one copy, then the museum is not a problem. That's to distinguish late imprinted with the same original board of intravital is really easy, but here sometimes it helps to know watermarks and other attributes of paper used for printing with the artist's life. The same problem with late heliogravire, but prized reputation of the company necessarily indicate a print that - geliogravyurnaya copy.

There is another problem, distribution is not discrete. The artist drew a sketch, after which the right to publish the whole getting a publisher. He published several years engraving with the original boards, if the series was popular and the board will eventually wear out. And not all at once, and all worn parts were cut again, so that in later prints are seeing some kind of a mixture of original and later elements. And yet a major publisher sometimes sold completely worn boards in smaller print more cheap runs for quite a cheap paper.
By and large, expensive first hundred prints from the original blocks, while they were still new. And so it needs to calculate the expert ... Because the 2000th mark with these boards has no value.

Posted 12 minutes
As for the museums - not always and they have the opportunity to compare his copy with the original. And very often, and do not try to do it ...

That recalled one old man interviewed as he helped the Pushkin Museum to make their catalog of Japanese prints, now try to find the net.

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Even those who were on duty a great time working with Japanese prints, often can not attributing the plot, the authorship can not determine the original or a copy - this is a very big problem that I encountered while working with the catalog. At the same time I want to emphasize that I am not saying that this is someone's private wine. The main thing - lack of schools and other opportunities for the emergence of professionalism.

And why did this happen? Just because they were destroyed by those who could create it or is there some other reason?

Without a strong founding fathers do in this area virtually impossible. And those people who nominally worked with collections of duty, did so in a totally unsuitable conditions. They could be very diligent people and read all available books - but the available books were few. They could be a great talent (I say this quite abstract - in fact, talents are rare) - but to become a specialist in this very esoteric field, the talent should be a long grind, it may not translate into practical benefits, if you work in the dark. For much of the learning process, simply point the finger. Many of the things you need to know a specialist on Japanese painting or engraving, you can not read in books, they are unique. They may be inaudible, for example, the artist can depart from the canonical iconography, cursive is very difficult to read, and here, without work with the tutor, is almost impossible not to make mistakes. Work should always be under control. Another problem: the lack of relevant literature. Pioneers like Eliseeva had a very difficult, but they learned in Japan. For those who are not able to visit there regularly for a long time and learn, there is another move, although significantly less successful - to use the scientific literature. There are currently issued in the West dictionaries of artists with a facsimile of their names, with seals, manuals, help determine the authenticity or plot, just a sensible research on individual artists, genres or periods.

They are in Russian libraries, museums?

No. It is to me and clones. They were not there at the time when I worked here and began its activities, ie until the late 80's, and subsequently, proglyadyvaya catalogs Lenin Library, the Library of Foreign Literature and, during recent visits, the Pushkin Museum, I saw that practically no new revenue. In the 90 years, this is very bad shape - had no money. Work without literature is simply impossible, especially if there is no teacher and the environment.

Of course the interview here, it's pretty great:
http://polit.ru/analytics/2008/02/20/pushk.html

Added after 14 minutes
And from there

In addition, I found many dozens do not first editions, and copies of engravings. However, this is not "copy". This "playing in explanation," which did in the late XIX century to an authentic technology, mainly for the western market. And so, this picture is written: "Hokusai", but made it through 70 years after the original. Sometimes, to distinguish them from the original is almost impossible. To do this you need to know the original - for example, in a reference copy on a small piece of paper in the corner there are four cloves, and we have only three. Or no one or two poems. Sometimes copying the work of, say, Hokkeya, a student of Hokusai, and wrote "Hokusai" (or "Utamaro"). I have these pseudo-Hokusai identified. In other cases, the need to examine dubious list with a magnifying glass, sometimes - to hold the paper in his hands. In 90-ies. XIX century, the quality of the paper was different. But it needs to have experience. In the museum, as it turned out, was not known that this copy. When I determined that it is - a copy, it made a very bad impression. I was told that they do not need to give that directory "a level" no copies are needed. I spent a lot of time fooling with those copies that are completely legitimate works of Japanese art, and western catalogs they are, they do not write the word "copy", and give the artist's name, the product of which it is made: by Hokusai. "No, no - I said - we can not give it a shame for the museum."
In the end they remain. And you know why? Not because they are convinced the professor. Because the designer did not alter the layout.

, but indicated that this copy?

There was lengthy discussion. They are not like that there appeared the word "copy". I said that you can use the word "peregravirovka. In English it would be «recut». This word is sometimes used, although it is not a large vocabulary, but from technical jargon. I like that everywhere and wrote. Then I sent the proofs, and I saw that the word «recut» in English withdrew, but in Russian "peregravirovka" is. I rushed to write letters ... Actually, I spent a wild amount of time trying to explain something, to show. I said: "You must understand, is not ashamed of what we give these copies. There will be a shame if experts see that the Pushkin Museum is unable to distinguish the original from the play. And so if I had done this job, let's write it. "
So I do not know, returned to the word «recut» or not. Very often, the correspondence went in one end. As I said, it is not taken to respond to letters.
That's why I look forward with some trepidation out of this directory and its emergence in the West. It may be that some day my colleague who helped me, open it, and, thrusting his finger in the picture, says: "So it's later play". And I will answer him: "Yes, you see, over here incomprehensible Cyrillic letters are written, but in English there, because the museum did not want to. And since most likely will not peep in my presence, the curators, professors thought to myself, or say to each other: "That's the Steiner raced a half years with those faded pictures, and that this copy was not written ... And such cases are legion. Therefore, when the museum did not respond to the proposal Publishers «Brill» on the distribution directory in the West, I thought that maybe it's for the best.

[Wladzislaw]

[Тютчев]

Сообщение от Wladzislaw

anyway - it is original.

 When it comes to prints, then the original are the ones that are made by the artist himself. This is because the process of creating prints is not limited to technical aspects that can really fulfill any typographical trained worker, but also includes such tasks as choice of colors and their intensity, contrast, paper (color, texture), or even selection of successful and unsuccessful cull sheets. All this greatly affects the final result and requires the direct participation of the artist. Therefore, in vivo prints made (and selected) by the artist himself, as an original and valued significantly more expensive.

[Wladzislaw]

Сообщение от Tjutchev

If we are talking about something original prints are the ones that are made by the artist himself.

Original engravings are those that are printed with the original boards. Prints can be supravital, and may be not.

Circulation, as correctly pointed out above, often can be distinguished on the paper.

For example, there is an engraving Cezanne, which was published after his death. And shalt artist does not make their own prints.

[Тютчев]

Сообщение от Wladzislaw

Original prints are those that are printed with the original boards. Prints can be supravital, and may be not.

Circulation, as correctly pointed out above, often can be distinguished on the paper.

For example, there is an engraving Cezanne, which was published after his death. And shalt artist does not make their own prints.

Let's look to the terms. For you there is a difference between the concepts of "author's impression" and "original print"? For you, this is the meaning the same thing or not? If not, then what's the difference?

[kr555]

Сообщение от Tjutchev

Let's get with the terms. For you there is a difference between the concepts of "author's impression" and "original print"? For you, this is the meaning the same thing or not? If not, then what is the difference?

Actually, if you do not think globally, and on topic, it must be remembered that no copyright imprints in Japan were up to the twentieth century. The role of the artist was limited to the implementation of the original sketch in ink, and marking coloring engraving proofs. Further work on the engraving other people, and copyright has been a publisher, an artist no control over the process was not.

[Peter]

Thank you all for the interesting informatsiyu.Predlagaetsya engraving Hirosige Ando (Japan ,20-s) a respected firm of the prints 20000 rubley.Eto normal price for today? Grow if the price of similar products? Or just for fun?

[kr555]

Сообщение от Peter

Thank you all for the interesting informatsiyu.Predlagaetsya engraving Hirosige Ando (Japan ,20-ies) of one distinguished by the prints of 20000 rubley.Eto normal price for today? Grow if the price of similar products? Or only for fun?

20-ies of the century? Apparently XX? Then, in my opinion expensive, resell more expensive would be virtually impossible, and not the fact that there will be invested back.

[Тютчев]

Сообщение от kr555

Actually, if you do not think globally, but on topic, we must bear in mind that no copyright imprints in Japan was not up to the twentieth century. The role of the artist was limited to the implementation of the original sketch in ink, and marking coloring engraving proofs. Continue over the engraving work by other people, and copyrights are the publisher, the artist no control over the process was not.

kr555, please follow the discussion. Wladzislaw, when he wrote your message (to which I replied) thought it was "global" as you put it. It is clear from the context of the debate, he responded to postAmateur and that no doubt, wrote about the prints at all. Yes, and the subsequent postWladzislaw and, convinces us that he talks about the European prints, but not about the Japanese. As an example, he refers to an engraving of Cezanne.
 
But even if, as you suggest, "thinking about topography and talk only of Japanese prints, the concept of" lifetime impressions "are not meaningless, though, and finds Japanese-specific. Without a doubt, not only an artist but engraver and printmaker Japanese prints played a significant role in its creation. This is especially true of printers, who, after the artist had been discussed all shades of color, making the required number of prints (two hundred), ensuring coherence and harmony of the overall color score. Other words, the Japanese woodcut had collective method it is created. This means that the engraving could not be established without the concerted action of each of the participants in this process. And you will agree that the role of the artist in this process still predominant? I repeat, engravings created in coordination with the artist (although it probably was not often), what is, is possible only with his life. For example, we know that the artist Katsushika Hakusan watched the process of creating prints. His engravings from the series "Thirty-six Views of Mount Fuji" was sold for a very considerable sum ($ 1.340.000), and influenced by the price, in this case, not so much the rarity of the print, but what was known creation date imprint: he was printed in a first half of the 30's. XIX century, that precisely when the artist created this series and could in some degree of control over the process of creating impressions. Other prints of the same image, but do not have precise chronology, had been sold much cheaper (about $ 150.000 - $ 500.000), despite the fact that sold five years after the sale of print, which has established a record price. This means that for the person who bought this print, it was essential it is that impression was created with the artist's life.


Sales date 11/27/2002
Hammer price EUR 1,350,000
EUR 1,350,000 - USD 1,341,360 - GBP 864,675
Estimate EUR 1,400,000 - 1,800,000
   
Category Print
Collection Huguette Berès
Medium Print, Woodcut in colors (oban yoko e) (36)
Location Paris (FR)
Auction house Sotheby's
Dated c.1830-1835
Lot number 107