"Russia's modern abstraction of secondary importance to define"

[Тютчев]

Сообщение от Maroussia

To be fair to say that this is not Frosina logic. This conclusion is in the 1960's came Camilla Gray. This is in the book "The Great Experiment» (The Great Experiment: Russian Art 1863 - 1922) wrote that turns all the modern (s) to the Western variety of abstraction were invented by Russian in 20-ies.

Maroussia, if you carefully read my text, you must have to understand that I am writing about that art criticism is unacceptable in the application of the term "secondary" in chronological context. Camilla Gray rightly argues that all the varieties of abstraction were invented by Russian in the 20's, but that does not mean that all the world abstract art is secondary to the Russian avant-garde. Russian "invented", but this does not mean that they thus on the abstract art of all subsequent time stamped again.

Likely fross had in mind exactly what you say, that is, that the Russian were the first in a chronological context, but the word "secondary" in art criticism, has a definite value! By the word "secondary" are mixed with the meaning of the word "epigone", which literally means "(Greek epigonos - born after) (knizhn.). Follower of Mr.. artistic, literary, scientific or other areas, devoid of creative independence. "That's about it, and only this I am writing in his post! I write about the incorrectness of the term "secondary":

Сообщение от Tjutchev

If we follow your logic, then the whole world is secondary Russian abstract art abstract art! It seems to me to talk about the secondary, guided by the chronology in the art sense, well, at least not productive! Main, in my opinion, should be the very quality of works, but when they do not matter! This is not a sport! Secondary one who is less interesting, less deep, and so etc. Recall the same old masters for each of the great, who then had an influence, but from our understanding of this, have not ceased to be greater for those who have had this effect. Innovation is not a guarantee of significance in the art. While this in itself remarkable ...

I felt it necessary to clarify this issue. Agree that the terminology is important! Moreover, the term "secondary" is the key in this topic!

Maroussia, I do not pretend to have all your attention (only modestly), but if you still decide to comment on my text, which I am very happy, please read it carefully. This will make our communication more productive. Thanks ...


Posted by 32 minutes

Сообщение от Maroussia

Unfortunately, this monograph has never been translated into Russian. But precisely because of this book, stop talking about the "secondary" of Russian art in comparison with western Europe. But write her English scholar (herself - a very interesting character), for which a low bow to her.

Maroussia, I do not know what kind of "conversations" you say, but this is Camille Gray and her books, I am sure that being a serious scientist, she could not say it that Russian Art second, except for the avant-garde. Serious scientist can not speak about what has no idea! Admit that this conclusion is yours, but not Camilla Gray. But what if it were her! I still think that Russian art of the 19 th early 20 th century is not known in Europe and America! Do not know! We have something to learn it really only in the 70 - 80-ies! Serious books on many aspects of Russian art does not exist yet! Until now! Where, say, in the west may know, our art, if it is still unknown to ourselves? There was, and no books! No, and no show! There was, and is not in Russia! I'm not talking about Europe and America! Tell me, how?

[dedulya37]

Сообщение от Tjutchev

I still think that Russian art of the 19 th early 20 th century is not known in Europe and America! Do not know! We have something to learn it really only in the 70 - 80-ies! Serious books on many aspects of Russian art does not exist yet! Until now! Where, say, in the west may know, our art, if it is still unknown to ourselves? There was, and no books! No, and no show! There was, and is not in Russia! I'm not talking about Europe and America! Tell me, how?

Here's to you and the field activities, and a forum, so small format for you.

[Маруся]

Tiutchev, thanks, that complement and doproyasnili "its position. But let us, in the words of Grandpa, "to argue for si:

Сообщение от Tjutchev

Where, say, in the west may know, our art, if it is still unknown to ourselves?!

We ourselves it is not known only ptomu that for a long time, even did not want to know: the definition of "formalism" meant not even diagnosed, and often - the verdict. After all, you are not a secret that for decades, instead of studying the avant-garde work, hidden in the museum's storerooms, some "art" they were simply destroyed, while authorities dealt with the authors (according to the leading and guiding the party line)
But in the West, they just knew and studied. And sources have been enough:
1) Russian avant-garde art exhibitions in 20-ies (It was they who preserved the material, the more so that most of them were exhibition rodazhi)
2) Russian avant-garde artists who departed after the revolution in Europe and long lived and worked there. For many, in the end, it turned into exile.
3) formed at that time large, serious collection. Why is only the collection of Prince Lobanov-Rostovsky and his wife, but because they are not the only ones.
4) And of course, a huge surge of interest caused Exhibition Costacis collections (as, indeed, and his collecting activities) in the Solomon R. Guggenheim Museum in New York in 1981.
I think that this is the wave of interest spread to the secular at that time, Russia, and literally "forced" us and our art to recall the great achievements of Russian avant-garde artists of the century. But remember - did not mean to start a serious study and popularize. Suffice it to say that the first serious monograph on the Russian Avant-garde Larissa Zhadov (Shadova L. Suche und Experiment. Aus der Geschichte der russischen und sowjetischen Kunst zwischen 1910 und 1930. Dresden, 1978) came to nemetskm language! As it turns out that in the USSR, it was no use to anybody? ... And was needed in the West, which had already had the whole community of people genuinely interested in and knew well (certainly better than us), Russian Avant-Garde.

[Кирилл Сызранский]

Сообщение от Maroussia

1) Russian avant-garde art exhibitions in 20-ies (It was they who preserved the material, the more so that most of them were exhibiting and selling)

And, for example, propaganda porcelain so generally placed for sale in the West.
Since 1920, this porcelain, successfully executed, according to Lunacharskogo. role of the authorized representative of the young state of the Soviets abroad, visited the exhibitions in Riga, Helsingfors (Helsinki), Berlin, London, Paris, Stockholm, Brussels, Milan, Venice, Revel ...
In the very same Soviet Russia propaganda porcelain could be seen except that the glass windows on the central streets of Moscow and Petrograd.
Artist Elena Danko (Natalie's sister) later recalled:
"Who remembers the Petrograd in those years-vyscheblennye desert pavement, immersed in darkness and cold, silent house, the windows echinated traces of recent star-bullets, he remembers, and showcase on the avenue 25 years in October. There on white dishes were burning bright red star, hammer and sickle flickered dim gold, porcelain, fabulous flowers entwined in a monogram "RSFSR." There was a small porcelain Red Guards, sailors, men and brilliant chess "Red and White." At a big platter was an inscription in a wreath flowers: "We will turn the world into a blossoming garden".

[VArt]

Link to the work of Elena Aseeva
POST-WAR ABSTRACT ART IN RUSSIA (1950-80)
http://www.krotov.info/lib_sec/01_a/ase/eva_01.htm#3

[ФАИв]

Сообщение от Vaulin Alexey

I have to the Internet what it cuts! hence the delay in posts

I can say that I know for example: Ruben Apersyan sale 25 000 $ 35 000 $, (dealer Gary Gogosya) Igor Vulokh 35 000 $ 40 000 $, "Gallery Dmitry Plavinsky»

Small clarification.
Gallery RedArt has an indirect relationship to the artist Dmitry Petrovich Plavinskaya, as supervised by his brother Petr Petrovich Plavinskaya famous Moscow Art Characters. (By becoming the founders of the "polite refusal"). And indeed located on the mezzanine floor of the CHA.

In addition, Vulokh certainly a wonderful artist, but its prices were twice as mentioned below. Now, as I know, almost all the work sold

[Кирилл Сызранский]

Сообщение от VArt

The reference to the work of Elena Aseeva
POST-WAR ABSTRACT ART IN RUSSIA (1950-80)
http://www.krotov.info/lib_sec/01_a/ase/eva_01.htm#3

And nothing material, I liked: concise, specifically.
I have this material is useful, because this topic, I do not know much.
Yes, liked it, thank you.

Do not you by chance?

[Ваулин Алексей]

Сообщение от FAIv

A little clarification.
Gallery RedArt has an indirect relationship to the artist Dmitry Petrovich Plavinskaya, as supervised by his brother Petr Petrovich Plavinskaya famous Moscow Art Characters. (By becoming the founders of the "polite refusal"). And indeed located on the mezzanine floor of the CHA.

In addition, Vulokh certainly a wonderful artist, but its prices were twice as mentioned below. Now, as I know, almost all the work sold

Thank you very much for clarifying "Do not argue! The main segment is actually lower, perhaps was an attempt to improve, my most recent data year ago.

I still do not correct my message about the prices received at the monitoring theme besides me virtually no one voiced by specific amounts. Perhaps the artists and this information is not very pleasant .

Added after 5 minutes

Сообщение от Cyril Syzransky

And nothing material, I liked: concise, specifically.
I have this material is useful, because this topic, I do not know much.
Yes, liked it, thank you.

Do not you by chance?

Cyril slightly ahead ! "Really great article, with a large set of informative, thank

[Кирилл Сызранский]

Сообщение от FAIv

Now, as I know, almost all the work sold

I also thought that there is an active movement. At least, the fact that interested anymore. I realized that there is desirable to immediately negotiate the purchase and price. From the way I saw one.

[ФАИв]

Cyril Syzransky, Long was dvizhuha at the beginning of the year. Large because the exhibition was "4ART". Catalog Markin did not shameful.

A Vulokh ... he is cool!

As prices: good, smart work of the 70's began to sell in 2005-2006 to 9000, then rose to USD 13000-19000 and happily went to the crisis. But the 35 000 did not see the owners offered to work for the purchase of 25 000, but the crisis erupts and buying over. :-)