The question of the primacy of the expert

[Ignat]

Dear forum members, I would appreciate the advice. While not declare the names and appearances, because I want to first understand whether in principle, to do something.

There is a picture. The owner attributed its оччень popular in Russia market, the 19 th century artist, who drew a lot of bruising huts and birch trees, and it actively forged and counterfeited.
Did you give - through the two gallery owners - to evaluate the two leading experts. One firm said that the forgery. Another, which clearly can not say, but a lot of doubt and a positive sign under examination does not deliver.
This would be possible and finish, but then go BUT:

- One of the experts' second plan (but not the "third", namely, quite sane, as I understand, a man who works in the Tretyakov Gallery) believe that the original;

- A big problem: there are no artist's signature, it vykovyrena. According to the owner, at 19, when the fear of confiscation. If this is too fake, logical, perhaps, to forge a signature than to pick;

- Expert, who spoke about the forgery, suggested that a fake 30-ies. However, the picture in the family of 18, when it left "on deposit" to go to Europe together people with different junk. This statement of the owner. I told her I can not believe for many reasons (age 78 years, the origin, its professional, ethical and cultural status, as defined in the process of long acquaintance, etc. As an illustration: As a direct descendant of PA Viazemsky it has a number of attribution and confirmed by examination of handwritten documents PA, but did not want to sell them for any money, although it is in a dire situation.)

- About the painting itself. I feel ignorant, like the work of the implied author still more than now this cartoon, though it is not a masterpiece. Display photos yet would not like not understanding whether it has meaning. There was somewhere barbaric topic about checking through tykanya needle - jabbed (that's such a bastard I am: shy, no traces. That is, probably more than a hundred years, and it also does not match the version of 30-ies.

Questions:
1. if the leading experts A and B have spoken, whether the word change in the force of circumstances?
2. Does it make sense to apply to other experts (one directly said that if a verdict, he and his brother for the examination will not be), and if so, to what exactly?
3. Can some technical espertiza give enough reliable result, and what it will cost?

As the topic, I think, takskat delicate, you can write and lichku. In lichku can all specify. On the other hand, if the experts say that further discussion is meaningful expose the photo in the subject.

PS Please do not perceive the mention of the plight of the owner in the genre of the recruiting song of beggars in the train. Rather, it is requested to actively take to clarify the issue. Because, if a question of forgery, you need to stop illusions and sell this thing as a fake for the price. But a clear understanding yet.

[SergeiSK]

Ignat,
I also came across pictures with cut signatures. In particular Repin, which was then quite successfully attribution. I think in your case, all is not in vain.

Сообщение от Ignat

1. if the leading experts A and B have spoken, whether the word change in the force of circumstances?

Of course, experts say could change. There Petrov once said, and so far said in This is a joke, I deeply respect him as an expert. So the initial opinion of experts about your picture yet does not mean anything.

Сообщение от Ignat

2. Does it make sense to apply to other experts

Of course there is! Hope dies last. You can apply in the Russian Museum in St. Petersburg, and in GosNIIR. And the same Peter ...

Сообщение от Ignat

3. Can some technical espertiza give enough reliable result, and what it will cost?

Maybe still in ArtKonsalting? The forum is their representative under the same nickname. I think it will help, and tell all prices.
And. I think that the expertise now need to give yourself, and not through the gallery owners.

[Ignat]

Сообщение от SergeiSK

Ignat,
I think it will help, and tell all prices.
And. I think that the expertise now need to give yourself, and not through the gallery owners.

Thank you very much, Sergey.
The only wanted to clarify, why not through the gallery owners? I thought so correctly, they are also interested in selling?

[color="# 666686"]Added after 16 minutes[/color]

Сообщение от Cyril Syzransky

Ignat, for flood sorry, come out of the topic, their answers can I remove.
And.
I have this message too, will remove later,

Damn. I always thought that more or less speak speech. But do not stop. I even now I do not understand any of your previous posts, nor the meaning of this last phrase - you continue Stebaev? In my opinion, somewhat clumsily to mockery. For nesteba mysteriously. Questions have been something simple.

Сообщение от Cyril Syzransky

but I will tell you, nobody pottverdit S. authorship of your pictures. In St. Petersburg, and asked why Moscow did not have to do? And all ...

Opinions are divided ...
Reframe the question: a crucial role in the attribution of plays technical espertiza (if any exist in the appropriate form) or opinions of experts?
And as far as the opinion of leading experts determines the judgments others?

If the attribution tightly paired with the opinion of two or three people, though very competent, but not with objective data, bad business - for market participants, primarily.

[allexx]

Сообщение от Ignat

Thank you very much, Sergey.
The only wanted to clarify, why not through the gallery owners? I thought so correctly, they are also interested in selling?

Yes, Serge, do not explain it? I also thought that seems to gallery owners interested in selling, but after a single case, like the description topikstarterom, crept into doubt. Thank you!

[Ignat]

Сообщение от Cyril Syzransky

OK, you say, wring some way the paper. And who you buy it? There would be, for example, Petrov, and he put all his reasons, doubts and arguments. So? Nothing ... Everyone will know of the existence of this painting with a long train of stories and fables, but will buy it?

If you look closely at the first post, I think, is obvious: I do not want to grind. I want clarity. If the expert rejects the authenticity, there are reasons, though he described them. So no, it was said, in essence: a fake, because fake. And what to think?
As for the plume - yes.
Again, I formulated the questions that might be useful for the profane. Once articulate. Maybe you (or someone else from the experts) do not find it difficult to answer:
- Are there any hardware expertise to enable impact on expert opinion?
- Does the opinion of leading experts, that the validity of the proposal is equal to zero?
- Able to efficiently operate the market (sorry, just been interested in the abstract), in which the validity of a commodity is determined by eye by two=three men, even a very respected?

Сообщение от Cyril Syzransky

I you all simply and clearly explained. And that you had carefully read my answers, and no joke ...
But this is your business, how to perceive my words. I was serious. "Sloppy"? Maybe not for me to judge, but I wrote to you as is. Then, remember my words and understand what I told you the entire script.

I do not to you, and to ensure that you and another tovarisch associated me with the author of Topeka, to which I referred ... devil ... OK, let's forget.
You explained and I understood. And thank you, and sorry if that is not so.

[Ignat]

Сообщение от Cyril Syzransky

"Author Topeka" is known. It is an open forum participant before he showed his Christie's auction lots. He would not have a nickname other questions to ask.

Since you have removed their posts, I can not (and do not desire) quoting your cryptic remarks.

Сообщение от Cyril Syzransky

Why does he send you my kitchen will rasskryvat.
I understand his line of reasoning, and can you tell them. But I will not, I and so you almost everything.

On "during the argument" does not tell. Ease lie, removing the posts.
But experts do not tell "kitchen" clients, and speaking - this is so, because I said so "- it is something so very proud, feudal. You now come to me with a legal matter, but I will say: "You do not win a process of ever" - and shut up. Is not it strange, no?

Actually, a funny situation. You have removed their posts, but Flooding continue. That you are cyclical, or what? Spamming and clear, again Flooding ...

Сообщение от Cyril Syzransky

What? Yes, the time of creating the painting of technical and technological research possible. And what it gives?

In this case - at least that it is not fake 30's, experts say.
A simple question: in addition to the time of creation, can not find anything?

Сообщение от Cyril Syzransky

I do not know what it is ... "Validity" ... No, I do not know.

Suitability, but with slightly dilated connotations, sorry, semantic additions. By the way, if the notion of "disability" (the root of a) unfamiliar, you can just look at the dictionary. There are dictionaries of modern Russian language, maybe you heard?

Сообщение от Cyril Syzransky

Do not answer. So globally, "the market"-I do not think, I mean something simple ...

Vain.
Countries to participate in that, what does not understand. (Anticipating your next philological exercise, I will note that if you as=either not minded, and meaning in it can not).

Сообщение от Cyril Syzransky

The health

Also thank the three hours' flood. And for that I drew. Teenage days was not involved in such a desultory conversation. Thank you.

[Евгений]

Сообщение от Ignat

- whether the market operate efficiently (sorry, just been interested in the abstract), in which the validity of a commodity is determined by eye by two = three men, even a very respected?

Ignat, you just caught the essence of the problem of Russia's art market.

[SergeiSK]

Сообщение от Eugene

: "The experts were wrong Tretyakov"

I was once an old antique dealer said: "Do you want to sell now - go for expertise in the Tretyakov Gallery, want to buy - go to Grabar!"

[Ignat]

Thank you all very much for the advice and information.

Also, sorry if offended anyone, certain posts (from the harvested authors), I just do not understand: shy:.

[Ignat]

Сообщение от Cyril Syzransky

Here is this moment in history "skolsky "...

As I understand it, this is the main reason for the negative findings. This can be overcome technical expertise? Well, I do not know, there's even written about hand movements ...