Florensky: On the one hand, this thing, on the other - images of things. Such strange three-dimensional images of things. Yet these things, as opposed to pure sculpture, wood, marble, where it is known image. Here it is, but is imposed and the second layer: it can simultaneously be seen as a thing. Like, this is a helicopter, they say, is a machine gun.
Somewhere near Kherson is famous monument to a cart. I have seen in the local museum of its layout. The model, however, horse shows, but the most important beauty there - it is a carriage, and her gun. This is a Soviet 1970's. And there is clearly visible with all the conventions that this image carts. You can cut off the horse, there still remain a cart machine, wheels, pictured conventional manner. As well as cubist or futurist depicts a moving locomotive or an airplane on the canvas. While we understand that this is not a submarine or not quite an enemy airplane wing.
Plutser: This children's toys?
Florensky: Fuck knows. It depends on how far we go in this game, the degree of certainty. Game conditions are such that this is the sort of thing. It depends on the size of the object. The exhibition "Russian Design" all things were clearly small. And they were clearly the images of an airplane or a locomotive. But the scale has moved in the direction conventionally natural size. All these items conditionally natural size, although it is clear that the submarine is not such a small, but one person can still fit in it.
Plutser: You used the word "game". When I first watched one of your works, I thought that this is an element of creative work. These are great toys.
Florensky: Sure. This is "nedoigrannoe. An interesting story to tell. We Olya learned that a child read the same book of a Soviet writer about Archimedes. Probably, it was published a huge circulation, once we have managed to read it together. The point was that a boy rigged a submarine made out of something.
Plutser: I also read it.
Florensky: Well, you see! And then she looked good, funny. And this boy submarine in the river feels. And it leaked water is. It turned out that the boat is stuck in general. And there was a phrase about Archimedes: "Vova-Archimedes" or "Victor-Archimedes!" For some such name. Straight, even in the internet search. In my book so impressed that I was living in the country in Sunny, began to look to the float. The men were making homemade catamarans for fishing of these cigar-shaped floats riveted, about a boy who said that this spare fuel tanks of military aircraft, stolen or purchased on the occasion at the airport. Just right Arkhipov interested. Realizing that the closest to the submarine, these are cigar-shaped floats, I began to get them straight and thought, how can I get them to make a boat. I suspect that when I was ten years old. And when we started with Olya make a submarine, I told this story. To which she replied to me, that too was reading this book. She also wanted to after reading this book to make the submarine. Moreover, from my childhood remains the idea that such fuel tanks are to be found in aviation enterprises. We started phoning all aviation companies of St. Petersburg. They turned out to be much more than could be expected. I thought that we have two airports and one aviaklub. But it turned out that until just a fig. But these tanks were military and the military complex. But one place we sell the item, which turned out to be "left fuel tank, helicopter MI-8". The phrase I had memorized, because they spent half a day at a fuel company. As a result, he was a little more than we expected. That some nedoigrannye pieces.
Even some wonderful Finnish comrades gave a small grant to create this amazing boat. It's just been done for the opening of the Finnish-Russian exhibition in St. Petersburg. I felt that life was a success. As a child, something no one has given grants, and the ability to communicate with the aircraft now was not. All this hindsight understand, you can analyze, but at the time of production of the boat it seemed a routine of artistic work - phoning airports.
Plutser: BAC - is the main part of this submarine?
Florensky: Yes. There are several elements involved. But this tank - the most important thing in her. And when the Finnish comrades gave the grant, we have written them terrified, explaining that the money we have, but the boat do not seem to be. We are with them so colorfully described it, for which he actually received the money. And we'll have to make a boat instead of a large field gun type howitzer. We were going to do it, too, but on that show it would look not so spectacular, like a boat. But do not find a tank and all! Here Olya calls and says that the tank has found. I ran and bought it. And we are for some kind of week all done. This, of course, a monstrous work.
Olya Florenskaya: I wonder how difficult it is for people to explain why you need this tank.
Florensky: Honestly can not. If you say that because of this you want to make a submarine, consider a dangerous madman. (Laughs). Olga came up with such a remarkable phrase: "We make movies!" After this sentence in Russia everything is possible. Listen to your request understands smiles, drawling says "Kinooo, panyatnaa ...». Therefore, any nonsense under the protection of movie passes. After this phrase to me all very friendly smile, and took with me two hundred dollars for the tank instead of three hundred. So everything is humanely has passed.
I had a funny story on this show, which the Finns gave the money. The exhibition was held in the premises of City History Museum in St. Petersburg. I went there and saw the Soviet auntie-curator. I said to her, I do not know, will be whether or not an object. And she says: "What have you got there?" I think to myself that it is impossible to talk about the submarine. Will a psycho. I told her gently: "It's such a long 3-meter long cigar-shaped object in the trestle." She looks at me, her eyes grow: "I do not tolerate obscene!"
Nedaigrannoe ... And guns. I would like to improvise a gun, so horseradish who will. We have already learned to do everything. We drill there, vices. All are doing themselves. By locksmithing mainly Olya. I have this bad. So I can, of course, drill and screw together physically, but I have very bad with patience and precision. Olya patient may well cut the thread. Even pulling out of my hand device for threading, because she simply likes to make thread. If you do not bolt right size and length - and they often do not - you can nail on a thick cut thread. We have no welding is not used, so that all the time necessary connection nut-screw.
Plutser: What game lining up toys for big kids?
Florensky: At this time voynushka. Maps - children love it too. Maps of the scheme but drew in childhood.
Olya Florenskaya: You're a child you want something to possess, then you can not be known for a number of reasons, then you're doing a "simulacrum".
Florensky: Well, that's up to simulacrum agreed! Now login will Deleuze and others. When you come to the top floor Science Museum in London and see the apparatus of Otto Lilienthal and the Wright brothers' plane in full size or Louis Bleriot monoplane, then you understand that with great pleasure that would make these items so that they still fly. Thank Nemirov once wrote that some Tatlin made Letatlin to fly something was not supposed to, but the type of fame. And the Wright brothers built him this bullshit, which can fly. That someone should be respected! Again, not for his Tatlin Tower 3-th International, and Shukhov for his radio transmission, which is beautiful, creative and brilliant. There is a wholesome grain. But we have no special education, understanding. For example, a machine gun with a drum and the tape is physically impossible, because it is hard insanity in terms of technical ideas. But we have one. Nevertheless, at the opening of an exhibition the young TV journalist with at least one university degree, I realized that we all own hands have done, what it took him several minutes, he asked: "Why do you all have done, rather than borrow military museum? ". In the sense that with all the idiocy of it looks convincing. At first, not second sight man and continues to believe that this is all borrowed from the artillery museum. I remember that in the Russian Museum on opening day such thoughts came from a few people quite clearly. They see the pictures, graphics, I think that we wrote them, and everything else, типо for the entourage were taken.
You know, like in the 1990-ies. when everyone heard what he should do the installation, started to hang on the wall paintings in a baguette, and in the middle of the room put some garbage that was the effect of the installation. What unexpected objects, the better.
We ask whether we are studying the real structure of an object. No. Because in this case, you just do a replica Kalashnikov or the Maxima. In my childhood I was interested in weapons and knew how to look Gatling gun, which was invented much earlier Maxim. And Maxim is not Maxim, a Russian, and Hiram Maxim, American gunsmith. An Englishman, which we have texts translated into English, and thought that Maxim - is a Russian machine gun. Gatling gun is powered by the rear handle located. In this type of machine gun Maxim, it will also be present. We got such a hybrid. So our facility - it is the memories of the original. But the memories are rather accurate, because the archetypes, it seems, is deeply seated.
Plutser: Toys fact and should not be true!
Florensky: Yes. That's the value of toys!
Plutser: Likewise paintings that hang on the wall, they too are not real. The best example of unreal art led me to my Ukrainian friend and wonderful artist Mikola Matsenko. Eden he once with his "Black Square" (it had a draft of such), and the driver asks:
- Al who invented the squares to draw?
- Malevich!
- What is the meaning of "Kvadrat" Malevich?
And Nikolai him and says:
"You know now Shishkina" Bears in the woods? "You're closer when you draw near, you will understand that there are no bears at all and no. This deception continuum. This is just an illusion, made on canvas. A "black box" - it vsamdelishny black square. This is an honest art.
Florensky: Our work as a game of ping-pong. Ping-pong play alone can not, you know. Sometimes we attract outsiders to the project. But usually it ends in nothing. But sometimes it is very necessary. For example, when it comes to electricity. Olya can change the plug. And I can not. I'm afraid that sometimes dangerous, even when everything is off the network. (Laughs). So the exception to the rule was a man who helps us with the electrician. It was with good taste and understanding, with a smile, looking at our amusement. He gets his money, everybody's happy. But when the co-creation starts, make sure there are problems: is not there. So everything yourself. And it is not from the fact that like himself with all the fuss. It is not like it. In Moscow there was an exhibition of Jean Tengeli. Thus, all of his amazing machines were made by a team of three or four people in kombezah with screwdriver in hand and automatic wrenches. It would be nice if these people were with us. But we can not achieve anything. No amount of money it does not solve the problem. His head is not inserted. But it all suffered.
Olya Florenskaya: But we'll decide what color the head with a screw will be!
Plutser: For me as a spectator in your own projects is a kind of mythology of life, the creation of utopia, the creation of another man's image, another image of Russia. Loom crazy characters.
Florensky: We have a particular character - the professor Barinov, figuratively speaking, ethnographer, and Salogubnikov in the Russian patent, relatively speaking, the inventor. It has its own reality. Everyone lives in a certain city. So we even texts are out there. For example, I never wrote any texts, but Olya wrote with his youth and the poetry and prose. When it was decided that I should write such texts, and Olya sat down to write them, I suddenly cut a gift. I started to edit them. These were, incidentally, dokompyuternye times - 1995-1996. Olya print text on a typewriter, scissors and I cut out a place which, in my opinion, should have been interchanged. Later we started writing together, and then I wrote their own texts. There is a reverse case. All my life I was considered an expert in photography, because with the age of eight went to fotokruzhki. So, by the way, I own photography equipment. Can display and print the photograph itself. I talked in the 1980-ies. with the best of Russia's photographers, for example, Northwind Smelova, late already. From Lenya Bogdanov, too late, to which I was a child went to fotokruzhok. And Ole contrary were available only kodak. And then it turned out that she was better than holding a camera. And I even envied. And it was a shame, because I once studied all his life, had a Zenit, meter, tripod. Photos "Aerial" Olga done without me. I did not even see. Thus, we have changed. I write the lyrics, Olya photographs.
We have changed our attitudes to art at a time when we were doing a project about the professor Barinov. It coincided paintings, drawings, photographs, mosaics, objects, texts. And graphic design, because they had to make a poster. It turned out that all of this - the same thing. Prior to that, our thinking was quite traditional, which divided the art into the sphere. Photography and painting were for me something totally different. As such, some collect stamps, some photographs. Olya life writing something, but what it may have the artistic creativity. No! And it was clear to us all. And suddenly we found out that all these things very well live in the same space. This is a «mock etnography», as they love to speak in Russian. «Mock» in English to imitate. So, psevdoetnografiya and psevdotehnichesky museum ... They all get along. Here is the text book, that's around navernuta picture, objects. At one time it was open to all, that painting, photography and sculpture can be in one exhibition. All my life I was an artist, I thought that writing can not. I'm not accustomed to! And it turned out that? Can, and how! Poems, perhaps, can not. A clearly thought I could express. Can take on anything. It was later discovered that film can be removed. Everywhere the same laws. No taboos.
Plutser: Once, when I went to one of your show, I was reminded of "Garpagoniada" Vaginov. There, the hero of each cropped nail folds into a separate box.
Florensky: Yes. I recently read about this book. I realized that my obsession. I classifier. There, the hero does not know where to put the butt: whether to cigarette butts, or in objects that belong to someone. He is good and here and there. For me, this is monstrous. I also suffer.
Plutser: And of prose that is most like?
Florensky: The most favorite - is the story of Michael Zoshchenko "In the bath". It describes our normal state. It describes a man who is looking for a band and can not find it. And suddenly notices that some guy in a gang sitting in the other foot washes, and a third holds that not stolen. This story describes the whole area of our classes. When two years ago we decided that we will deal plenernoy painting, it became clear that the rest of the gang throw absolutely impossible. At one time, Timur Novikov, deciding to do the New Academy, solemnly declared that the whole of modernism, which he worked before - stupid, wrong and mistakes of youth. This is wrong. I think that all gangs should be in your presence.
Plutser: Tell me about painting.
Флоренский: С 1978-го года по 1990-е годы каждое лето за городом, а все остальное время в городе, сколько я себя помню, мы занимались живописью. Причем все это под дождем, с комарами, под снегом с портвейном. Потом все это закончилось, во-первых, с развитием алкоголизма. Тяжело стало. Рисовать хотелось уже не на улице, а в студии, причем с набросочка, с фотографии. В нашей семье тяжело было с алкоголизмом с 1990 по 1993 гг. А потом я уже перестал выпивать. После этого не было повторного увлечения пленерной живописью, потому что началась пора текстов, фотографий, объектов и т.д. Живопись заняла как раз то место, которое она и занимает в современном искусстве, став одним из видов, которым все владеют хорошо и нарисуют, если что надо. Живопись перестала быть священной коровой. Когда у меня в 1993 году была персональная выставка, я попросил Олю написать к ней текст. Там была такая фраза: «Мы все были долго в послушании у рыжего небритого человека с перевязанным ухом... А у него не забалуешь!». А мы таки забаловали. И не то, чтобы мы вернулись к живописи, просто поняли, что чего-то не хватает среди шаек и крутящихся тарелочек. Как у Курехина: «Но что-то ушло...». А летом 2004 года у нас снова прошел решительный переворот. Я, по-моему, тебе рассказывал. Так вот в 1996 году мы с Олей идем по набережной в Риме и вдруг видим такой сюжет: на островке, куда ведут ломаные мосты, стоят люди, точнее девы в белых одеждах с мольбертами, знаешь, как на фотографиях 1890-х гг. Ежу понятно, что это была группа, в лучшем случае, студентов, а в худшем – домохозяек. И вдруг говорю: «Вот как надо! Мы же раньше также делали! Почему мы в деревне Писковичи рисовали пейзажы, а теперь в Риме, в Париже бываем, а не рисуем. Так ведь все красиво! Что не так!?» Прорыв у нас произошел в 2004 году опять же в Риме! Оля получила от фонда Бродского таинственную стипендию, которая заключалась в том, что надо было жить и работать в Риме. Стипендия таинственная, потому что к ней не надо апеллировать. Тебя просто информируют, что ты ее получил. А ты, как в случае с Олей, ее не просил и даже никогда и не слышал о ней. Итак, Оле было позволено приехать в Британскую академию в Риме и там работать. Поехав туда, она взяла с собой акварель, бумагу и рисовала все эти три месяца пейзажи с натуры. Таким образом, перестав строить какие бы то ни было объекты, делать фотопроекты. Я должен был приехать Оле, но вдруг я испугался жары и не поехал. А поехал с художником Иваном Сотниковым на Соловки. Он, правда, с 1991 года был действующим православным священником и живописью уже не промышлял. А на Соловках происходил фестиваль «Арт-ангар». А там все как надо: перформансы, инсталляции. Как говорит поэт Немиров: «То висит инсталляция, то перформанс стоит...» А там красота невероятная. Ее надо или рисовать или фотографировать. И вдруг мы увидели, как в лодке стоя поет какая-то женщина. И жутко так провинциально все это выглядело на фоне красоты. Я подумал, ну, ладно, ты выпила стакан вина вечером и спела, но чтоб специально петь. И тогда у нас с Сотниковым завязался разговор, каким должен быть правильный фестиваль и кого бы мы на него позвали. Это было 27 июля 2004 года. А на следующий год мы сделали фестиваль. Мы с ним на ходу придумали, что это будет «Общество любителей живописи и рисования». Аббревиатура похожа на Алжир. И чтобы никто не обижался, мы с Сотниковым стали обществом, а все остальные выступали в роли экспонентов. В августе следующего года я в Ферапонтово получил на два дня выставочный зал. Сняли гостиницу, автобус, поехало человек семь художников, и за две недели нарисовали огромное количество картин. С тех пор таких поездок произошло немерено. В 2006 году был Норильск. С Норильском смешно получилось. Сидим, значит, в Ферапонтово, а там красота буколическая: озеро, монастырь. Вдруг художница Юлия Васильева говорит: «Ой, как здесь красиво! Что-то даже слишком! Надо в следующий раз что-нибудь другое: трубы, железная дорога». Которые, между прочим, тоже очень красивые. И тут я вспомнил Норильск. И подумал, вот с чем я обращусь в Фонд Прохорова.
Плуцер: Тебе комфортно в мире твоих игрушек?
Флоренский: Проблемы возникают после выставки, когда нам нужно придумать, куда девать объекты. У нас, конечно, все в порядке с помещениями, но трехметровые лодки все-таки нарушают течение нашей жизни. Время от времени нам удается от них избавиться. Тогда мы счастливы. Комфортность условна. Комфортно в мире идей и представлений, а в физическом мире не очень. Еще получаешь удовольствие в процессе создания этих объектов, особенно когда ты уже понял, как делать, и конец виден.
Один художник рассказывал мне свою историю. Он знал, что все его картины навсегда останутся с ним. Никто их попросту не купит. А он очень любил рисовать. При этом жил в коммуналке. И как быть? Места-то почти нет. Вот он и решил писать картины очень маленького размера, чтобы без проблем их хранить.
Мы с Олей примерно так и рассуждали до перестройки. А потом выяснилось, что можно и на выставках участвовать, печатать книги.
Плуцер: Почему в названиях проектов так часто встречается слово «русский»? Патриотизм?
Флоренский: Как сказал Пушкин, я, конечно, презираю свое Отечество с головы до ног, но мне будет очень неприятно, если это чувство со мной разделит иностранец. Какой «русский» дизайн? Ясно, что херня полная. Но в то же время, какая гордость за Левшу. У него-то глаз пристрелямши! Пока есть рубероид, обмотанный грязными тряпками, пока есть заборы из кроватей, сломанных лыж, есть русский дизайн.
Плуцер: В Севастополе есть участок, на которой вместо домика стоит фюзеляж от самолета.
Флоренский: Все такое гнусное, но родное.
Плуцер: Сколько продано рукотворных проектов?
Флоренский: Мало. Немного людей, падких на такое искусство. Иногда хотят купить не весь проект, а только часть. Это все равно, что стену по кирпичам продавать.
Есть у нас история, которая до сих пор коробит сердце, несмотря на то, что денег нам заплатили нормально. У нас была выставка в Хельсинки в галерее с проектом про профессора Баринова. Тут же купили у нас две картины маслом и три маленьких объекта частные люди, какую-то часть купил Helsinki Art Museum, несколько фотографий еще какой-то музей. В результате от экспозиции остался один центральный самолет. По частям продавать неприятно.
Плуцер: Я был у тебя в мастерской в 1993 году и увидел огромное количество картин маслом. Куда вы их деваете?
Флоренский: Мы все раздали. Ничего не продавалось. В Питере нет инфраструктуры. Близился 2000-й год. Казалось, что все должно быть по-другому. Он представлялся переломным. Сейчас об этом смешно говорить, когда на дворе 2007-й. Мы с Олей сидим в мастерской и понимаем, что вообще нет свободного пространства – кругом подрамники и т.д. Мы придумали, что в новый век нужно «подрасчиститься». И послали факсы музеям по всей стране с тем, что они могут приехать и взять у нас что хотят. И многие приехали. Кто-то не отозвался. Кто-то радостно отозвался, но не приехал.
Плуцер: Никто не заплатил?
Флоренский: Никто, кроме Русского музея, Третьяковской галереи. Но они очень долго не платят. Успеваешь забыть, что они обещали денег. Но мы им даром много отдали.
Плуцер: И сколько Третьяковка заплатила?
Флоренский: Что-то чисто символическое. Около 3000 долларов. Но если разделить на количество объектов, то на каждый выходило по 100-150 долларов. Но все равно приятно. Котят в хорошие руки лучше, чем за дорого.
Плуцер: А Маркины да Семенихины вами не интересуются?
Флоренский: Мы слышали, что есть такие люди, да только на нашем горизонте пока не появлялись. Гельман продал наши восемь религиозных зданий. Мы к творчеству не относимся как к предмету заработка. Правда, в результате всей жизни мы добились того, что не надо ходить на работу. Как-никак в семье два известных художника.
Материал подготовлен А&Я Плуцер-Сарно
http://plucer.livejournal.com/55913.html
24.12.2009, 16:44
Good to be an artist - a job no need to go
Линейный вид
Похожие темы