Старый 14.02.2011, 13:49 Язык оригинала: Русский       #11
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Сообщение от Peter; 1526381"
Art-lover, try to compile their own way. Painting on the ultimate goal (goal) of the expression can be divided into three kinds: material formospisyvayuschuyu (substantive), soul (or rather substantive than bezpredmetnuyu) having an emotional impact, as well as spiritual (both substantive and abstract) Finding the spiritual element in painting is the highest it content is not required in the contemplative experience of having prdmetnyh forms.
Peter, in your question you relate the painting from the theosophical vertical plans (material - the astral - the mental) and related to the last hierarchy of values (matter - soul - spirit). Correspondingly, you define a hierarchy of tasks of painting.

Ingarden also makes provisions for the purposes of painting, his task - descriptive: to figure out why a masterpiece differs from daub or indifferent craft crafts. The highest value paintings he believed in the presence of "image", the harmonic (possibly includes working on the image of disharmony), difficult to organize, is intrinsically linked to the integrity of the aesthetic and artistic qualities. Moreover, this synthetic value of the paintings he viewed as a qualitative determination, ie, not reducible to other values, and therefore falls outside of the hierarchy:
"So, for example, works by Rembrandt will be fine in a different way than the paintings of Raphael or Leonardo da Vinci. And almost impossible to say that the product of one higher than another, that For example, a self-portrait by Rembrandt in the fez beautiful than any portrait of Leonardo da Vinci's Mona Lisa, or his. "

Theory, according to Ingardenu can put the problem of creating a synthetic high integrity, but is unable to solve it. And therefore, could not provide a wizard like what he saw. Achieving this wholeness - akin to a miracle, to express the richness of the content of the masterpiece in conceptual form as possible:

"... this is another major problem: what and how the selection of quality, indifferent in value terms, should serve in any thing, or be created by us, that they have aesthetic value, respective artistically valuable, and that they could lead to the constitution of a work of art. And I must say, great artists of their creative acts, as a rule, successfully resolve this problem, though usually more or less deeply aware of it. But such a practical success by itself does not lead to a theoretical resolution of the issue and its conceptual expression. Therefore, the theory of art, as well as the theory itself aesthetic values behind the creative work of artists and usually appears before us only as a purely scientific problem ". (Ingarden) (emphasis added)

As to the "spiritual component, it can relate to what Ingarden calls a" metaphysical qualities. " Here's an interesting excerpt from the book "On the structure of the picture, clarifying the issue of possible reflection of these qualities in the abstract art:
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 ... There are aesthetically valuable moments themselves subject structures.
For example, a structure can be confusing or clear, complex or simple, easy (graceful), or heavy, rhythmic or spasmodic (more generally: unmusical), dynamic or static, etc. Such an aesthetically valuable moments of the structures (in the form of some special values ) are something of quality.
They are also «metaphysical quality» (in my terminology) that arise from subject of situations, especially from all kinds of human affairs. ... It is qualities such as high or low nature of the subject or the subject of the situation, of tragedy, causing terror, obscurity, the demonic nature of that act, the sanctity or conversely, "sin", ecstasy, rapture, or dead silence of eternal rest, etc.
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Quality of the latter kind are not just some special properties of objects (things), but usually it's not the features of different mental states. This is sort of peculiar atmosphere enveloping these or other human or nadchelovecheskie event or situation. These are qualities that seemed to envelop the people and things that are in certain situations or at certain phases of its development - qualities that are in them penetrate and illuminate, giving them some unique charm. It is inherent in them all the charm (which has various shades and degrees of intensity) have a special way mentally lifts, especially when due to various circumstances, we perceive the metaphysical quality as if at some distance, with some weakening of the intensity with which they are perceived by us in the real world . Usually this happens when we are dealing with works of art in which these metaphysical qualities are revealed to us. An inherent fascination leads us into a state of some kind of ecstasy and satisfy our thirst for metaphysical (and irrespective of whether we are in the theory of metaphysics or antimetafizikami, spiritualists or materialists). Materialist or positivist in philosophical theories are equally perceived experiences in the work of art is metaphysical quality as the zealous "metaphysics"-spiritualist. At most, the first will involve some more metaphysical quality, manifested in nature or in art, and secondly - the new. So, the very problem of the existence or nonexistence of such qualities has nothing to do with the disputes concerning metaphysics, or the struggle against it. At the moment it is important and is essential only that the metaphysical qualities, firstly, is an important factor in the aesthetic sense of art and, secondly, that they are peculiar to each type of works of art, whether literary, music, painting, sculpture or architecture.
Thereby we allow another question that might arise in relation to works of art, namely: whether the metaphysical qualities are found only in the scenes with the literary theme, or they are inherent and other kinds of patterns, such as portraits, the "pure" painting depicting one or other subjects, as well as pictures of the "abstract" painting. Sure, the pictures with the literary theme of the possibility of metaphysical qualities more than the "pure" or "abstract" paintings, because for them an open area of human lives, events, conflicts, etc.

But exactly how this kind of quality exist in the physical objects and events that occur in nature, they are inherent and works of art, not only devoid of literary themes, but does not contain a factor of the human psyche (which is, for example, in a portrait) . In other words, a picture of the so-called dead nature or purely abstract paintings.




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Старый 14.02.2011, 14:50 Язык оригинала: Русский       #12
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Indeed, very interesting and important topic. Thank you so much for its discovery.

I would here like to touch here is some perspective. Professed Roman Ingardenom phenomenological method in the approach to the perception of abstract art is certainly very important and productive. However, let's look at this issue from the other side - from the "metaphysics of abstraction. And here, of course, necessary to the discovery of psychoanalysis. Freud postulated the existence of a great man trudnopostizhimoy for the study areas - the unconscious. It is to her, in my opinion, in the first place and appeals abstract (or non-figurative) art. In contrast to figurative art, which is primarily addressed to our conscious field with preconceived notions out there about the form, composition, structure, space, etc. Our conscious installation in a sense, prevented deeper penetration into the unconscious message of the artist. Abstract art as remove all barriers to such penetration, and directly appeal to our psychological depth. Also remind of the widest distribution of the so-called projective psychology, where the use of abstraction is the key to the deep layers of the human psyche and helps people better understand the source of some of his views on the world, actions and deeds. The simplest example - spot Rorschach (appendix).

And here the question arises: whether to apply to the assessment of abstract (non-figurative) art of the same criteria as for figurative art, given the fact that they are addressed to different spheres of human consciousness?
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Старый 14.02.2011, 17:33 Язык оригинала: Русский       #13
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Сообщение от Stanislavski Посмотреть сообщение
Indeed, a very interesting and important topic. Thank you so much for its discovery.

I would here like to touch here is some perspective. Professed Roman Ingardenom phenomenological method in the approach to the perception of abstract art is certainly very important and productive. However, let's look at this issue from the other side - from the "metaphysics of abstraction. And here, of course, necessary to the discovery of psychoanalysis. Freud postulated the existence of a great man trudnopostizhimoy for the study areas - the unconscious. It is to her, in my opinion, in the first place and appeals abstract (or non-figurative) art. In contrast to figurative art, which is primarily addressed to our conscious field with preconceived notions out there about the form, composition, structure, space, etc. Our conscious installation in a sense, prevented deeper penetration into the unconscious message of the artist. Abstract art as remove all barriers to such penetration, and directly appeal to our psychological depth. Also remind of the widest distribution of the so-called projective psychology, where the use of abstraction is the key to the deep layers of the human psyche and helps people better understand the source of some of his views on the world, actions and deeds. The simplest example - spot Rorschach (appendix).

And here the question arises: whether to apply to the assessment of abstract (non-figurative) art of the same criteria as for figurative art, given the fact that they are addressed to different spheres of human consciousness?
LAST AND MOST HOME EVALUATION WILL in rubles, dollars and euros.
Fold the paper in two and pour in the middle of the ink or gouache and get your orrriginalnoe spot.



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Старый 14.02.2011, 21:25 Язык оригинала: Русский       #14
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Сообщение от Pavel Посмотреть сообщение
Last and most important in the assessment will be in rubles, dollars and euros.

Fold the paper in two and pour in the middle of the ink or gouache and get your spot orrriginalnoe.
Well, here come the lieutenant Rzhevskii ...


Added after 9 minutes
Art-lover, you completely understand me saying about teosofnoy trehstupenchatosti.Tem at least say that the availability of the product "image", one way or another is sealed in my suzhdenie.Bolshaya mountain covers a smaller hill.




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Старый 14.02.2011, 22:46 Язык оригинала: Русский       #15
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Сообщение от Stanislavski Посмотреть сообщение
Indeed, a very interesting and important topic. Thank you so much for its discovery.

I would here like to touch here is some perspective. Professed Roman Ingardenom phenomenological method in the approach to the perception of abstract art is certainly very important and productive. However, let's look at this issue from the other side - from the "metaphysics of abstraction. And here, of course, necessary to the discovery of psychoanalysis. Freud postulated the existence of a great man trudnopostizhimoy for the study areas - the unconscious. It is to her, in my opinion, in the first place and appeals abstract (or non-figurative) art. In contrast to figurative art, which is primarily addressed to our conscious field with preconceived notions out there about the form, composition, structure, space, etc. Our conscious installation in a sense, prevented deeper penetration into the unconscious message of the artist. Abstract art as remove all barriers to such penetration, and directly appeal to our psychological depth. Also remind of the widest distribution of the so-called projective psychology, where the use of abstraction is the key to the deep layers of the human psyche and helps people better understand the source of some of his views on the world, actions and deeds. The simplest example - spot Rorschach (appendix).

And here the question arises: whether to apply to the assessment of abstract (non-figurative) art of the same criteria as for figurative art, given the fact that they are addressed to different spheres of human consciousness?
It seems to me that the asserted thesis takes the discussion into a completely different plane. Psychoanalysis (not to mention being a night) is always coming to an abstraction purely consumer. His (psychoanalysis, or we can talk about the support of this approach - the psychoanalyst) abstraction as such, interested only as a tool to penetrate the subconscious mind to affect the test in order to obtain feedback. However, his (the analyst) are not interested in, and whether the used abstraction aesthetic qualities, or is merely a randomly created image (that's you, for example, spots Rorschach). That is, if the submitted image evoked in the recipient, certain associations with certain things, objects, images, it is very important for him, then such an image in the eyes of the psychoanalyst is a "valuable", fulfill its function. Meanwhile, it may not have any aesthetic value.
Set out in the same Art-lover 'om the material we are talking just about the aesthetic value images of quality of their content, universal (at least with some statistical significance) for a certain group of people in a certain historical period and for particular society.



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Старый 14.02.2011, 22:57 Язык оригинала: Русский       #16
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fabosch, all right.
But the question is, which I announced: What are the criteria (aesthetic), we come to abstract art?
Would it be the same criteria that we normally are guided toward figurative art?



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Старый 14.02.2011, 23:13 Язык оригинала: Русский       #17
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Сообщение от Stanislavsky Посмотреть сообщение
to which criteria (aesthetic), we come to abstract art?
Why only abstraknomu art?
The work of art, no matter how much has been invested there high emotions, intellect, can not be so without passing the test of aesthetics.



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Старый 14.02.2011, 23:15 Язык оригинала: Русский       #18
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It seems to me that the asserted thesis takes the discussion into a completely different plane. Psychoanalysis (not to mention being a night) is always coming to an abstraction purely consumer. His (psychoanalysis, or we can talk about the support of this approach - the psychoanalyst) abstraction as such, interested only as a tool to penetrate the subconscious mind to affect the test in order to obtain feedback.
In other words, all attempts to split the nucleus of an atom with a hammer are doomed to failure, but immediately upon impact could such a powerful wave of sound vibrations, which adversely affects the psyche of the inflicting the blow, and causes him to retreat in panic. (In style by art-lover )



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Старый 14.02.2011, 23:21 Язык оригинала: Русский       #19
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Сообщение от Samvel Посмотреть сообщение
Why only abstraknomu art?
The work of art, no matter how much has been invested there high emotions, intellect, can not be so without passing the test of aesthetics.
Samvel, what if you think that the main criteria for the value of works of art?



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Старый 14.02.2011, 23:27 Язык оригинала: Русский       #20
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Сообщение от Stanislavski Посмотреть сообщение
fabosch, all right. But the question is, which I announced: What are the criteria (aesthetic), we come to abstract art? Would it be the same criteria that we normally are guided toward figurative art?
I think that the criteria that makes the viewer to a picture, basically, should not be changed during the transition from figurative to abstract images. Reservation "basically refers to the moment the present situation, in figurative images except formal pictorial criteria we consider and analyze and properly substantive side of the image (the plot, the relationship of subjects, including cultural and contextual allusions, etc., which is rejected some purists, but it certainly is an integral part of any figurative images). And the rest is the same - composition, the overall color palette, pictorial and plastic solutions, textural moments, fine quality, etc. and all these purely formal, it would seem, aspects, too, often bear some burden, referring to the different cultural contexts. This may be the context of not only paintings, but also music, poetry, etc. And this load, I believe, makes the picture more to it than just an image, makes speak our mind, feelings, if you want, and soul. Then we say that this is art, not a "picture of the furniture store," as expressed in iside.
Incidentally, the same Ingarden, writes on the example of Picasso, that combine abstraction with figurative "inserts" creates a special aesthetic quality that combines the advantages of abstraction and figuration, that is, the image fills the additional context.

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Сообщение от Peter Посмотреть сообщение
In other words, all attempts to split the nucleus of an atom with a hammer are doomed to failure, but immediately upon impact could such a powerful wave of sound vibrations, which adversely affects the psyche of the inflicting the blow, and causes him to retreat in panic. (In style by art-lover )
Well you, Peter, and turned, I speculated that could mean your message. Several interpretations, but some of them are true, do not even know




Последний раз редактировалось fabosch; 14.02.2011 в 23:34. Причина: Добавлено сообщение
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