Japanese Prints

[Admin]

Perhaps this interesting topic, it makes sense to move to the "Yield" or even "art movement" that it is not lost here, including assessments of specific work?

[Евгений]

Сообщение от Admin

"Destination Art",

Subject is interesting, you can in this section .. then you are right it does not zateryaetsya.V theme "The Art of China and Japan" can be a link to this discussion.
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For engravings Ando Hirosige.
The most famous series: "53 stations Tokaido road" is a classic Japanese prints.
Ando has created about ten episodes on this classic topic, the most valuable:
A series of 55 etchings (first edition)
1831-1834 year
Publishers: Senkakuda and Takenouchi Magohati (Hoeydo)
In January 1834 reprinted in book format published Hoeydo (Dzirobey engraver, printer Neybey)
In the 1830's came a series of "Keck Tokaido", which was better known, lists its been complemented by humorous verses Keke, who gave the name of the whole serii.Izdatelem was Sanok, 56 sheets, along with the title, sometimes called "Sanok Tokaido" on behalf of the publisher.
The publisher of the series "Hessia Tokaido" (1841-1842) was Edzakiya (Etatsu), second edition carried Yamadaya.Naimenovanie series, standing in the right corner of each sheet was written in the style Hessia-poluskoropis, allowing for the series and to keep this title.
In the years 1844-1848 published a series of "Arita Tokaido" (56 engravings), the publisher Arita.
Series "Tokaido dzimbutsu publisher Muraiti (1852god), 56 sheets, vertical format (39h26 cm)
1852 series "Tokaido" vertical, publisher Fujiko.
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[Евгений]

Gallery Cyril Danelia

[Кирилл Данелия]

[Евгений]

Dear Cyril, we have a couple of days trying to understand the pricing for color, Japanese prints .. but still very difficult. You are in the gallery, the work of Ando (Utagawa) Hiroshige, the period 1835-1848, worth U.S. $ 700-1000 Why such a price?

Сообщение от Cyril Danelia

his own originals, depending on preservation - reach tens of thousands of $ ...

I understand that this is the period of 1831-1845 years? What is the difference? Valued only the first edition? + Name of the publisher?

[Кирилл Данелия]

Eugene,
I also have a higher price tag))) a couple of them I'll put pictures to the end of the post ... but ..

In general, there are several Hiroshige prints - prices that are going wild ... remaining the same and should cost ... and stand in the world ...
Naturally, it is - only about lifetime editions and .. first state engraving, which with very few exceptions reach our days in the state, leaving much to be desired ...
but, illustrated below wave "Suruga satta Kaijo" a series of "36 species of Mount Fuji" 1858 edition (it was still 1852, but it is a horizontal format), I met for the price of 4 to 6,5 thousand ve even in the western gallery * I have it behind the 3 *, so that pricing is highly dependent on the appetites of the dealer))))

[kr555]

Сообщение от Tjutchev

Still with dating all is not so, as you write. Hokusai began work on the series in late 1820 and intended to make a hundred engravings. However, only 36 were issued sheets, which later added ten more. For example, in the collection of the Pushkin Museum are 19 prints in this series - 14 of them were published between 1829 - 1892 years, various publishers, and 5 - peregravirovki 1948. As you can see, there are engravings published already in the 29 th year. They were published throughout the XIX century with the very boards that were cut initially. Ie used the same boards that are cut first engraver. And only a change in printers. Naturally, the published proofs can be classified by the quality of print, which affects the state board (which, by itself, of course, will wear out over time). In other words, from a qualitative impression of a less quality. If you classify impressions by the result of the printer, then the collector must have, and it will be important, these prints were printed in the printer, receiving counseling or a Hokusai prints, printed when it was impossible for natural reasons. It is known that the artist followed the process of making prints, and therefore, he could do it in the late 20's - 30's. Although probably a major role in determining the value of engravings for the collector of Japanese prints of the 19 th century is the quality of print and rare. What was once it is printed so it is more qualitative.
 
Apparently there was some possibility of more or less accurate dating, if kept in the Pushkin Museum reprint of this series, dated 29 th year. But be aware that the sequence of creation of prints is not installed. Hokusai applied in a series of three different signatures: "Hokusai kai Iitsu hitsu", "Hokusai Iitsu" and "Zen Hokusai Iitsu hitsu". Perhaps the earliest are nine prints, signed Hokusai kai Iitsu hitsu "(Hokusai, changed his name to Iitsu"), which include such well-known engravings as Red Fuji, The Great Wave, and Mount Fuji during a thunderstorm. This means that it is possible to date the prints on some other grounds. And, most likely, that in some cases dating can be accurate to indicate the year of publication, and some only with the relevant time frame in which the prints could be issued (as in the case imprint, which was sold at auction for $ 1,340,000 and referred to above).

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I do not think that the engravings, sold for an impressive sum, it is "the devil knows what kind of impression." I think experts managed to establish exactly what impression it was published between 1830 and 1835 years. Reprints late 20's and early 30's. Probably in the market there is not much that makes this an extremely valuable impression.
 
The print, which was sold at Christie's (the one that you have shown above), was classified by experts to print made later. No other reasonable explanation for this difference in price I do not see. Why are you so sure this impression belong to the same period (30-35-ies.)? Do you have a good reason? I think if the experts Christie would your confidence, then they certainly would indicate the most accurate date. And it would be logical, because it would increase the cost of the lot and would allow the auction house to earn more money. This is the meaning auction. Perhaps this confidence was a collector. And if he was right then it turns out that he bought this lot as erroneously undervalued. From what we can congratulate him.
 
The auction house had set the date as accurately as possible. This is necessary in order to determine estimeyt for this lot and bring it to the attention of potential buyers. You understand, this is also dictated by the logic of the auction. A guided buyer dating auction house or not, we do not know. Also, for us it remains a mystery, he determined the value of that impression or have consulted with experts, but you must admit it is not so important.

Discussion with an interesting conversationalist - a pleasure. The main provisions, I absolutely agree with you. And thanks for the excuse to get deeper into this interesting topic.

I am sure that most (perhaps all) of the facts and the provisions cited by me in this and other messages were you aware of before me. But for the orderliness of presentation without them was hard.

I'm sorry, did not answer the items and perhaps a little messed up.
Let's start with the fact that the exact date of release of these prints is not known, while it is generally accepted that a series of Hokusai created in 1820, and published it was estimated in 1830-1831, certainly not later than 1832. For Red Fuji British Museum gives dating 1830, Boston 1830-1831. Take, for convenience, dating 1831.
Come on. The limit to which the original board you can get some impression how acceptable quality - from 8000 to 10000 fingerprints, after which the boards are a wreck. Organicheniya in circulation was not, engraving published continuously up until engraving bought. This series of Hokusai dismantled like hotcakes. Printing speed engraving - dozens of prints a week, we take for convenience 50. We get 200 a month, and 2500 year. That is, if the average speed printing boards worn for 4 years, to 1835.
Everything! No more prints from the original plates can not be, any printed from the original plates impression made from 1830 to 1835. Then only restrayki which there are several hundred variations.
Thus, dating 1830-1835 is amusing, for people who do not understand what it was about. Christie is no general way of dating for a single etching does not, even on a rare early version with a pink, not red Fuji, which they also sell. This variant retained only 5 pieces, it is known that this was a trial version, printed before the main circulation, and something just might be dated to 1830, but they do not make the approximate dates of principle.

Posted 50 minutes
P.S. But the sale of this print for more than 200 thousand cu I would in any case did not call an underestimate. On the contrary, it is just a very adequate, even the high price, the price it should not cost you. But the sale of 1 million - is not entirely clear fluctuation, probably several times higher estimeyta apparently encountered two stubborn, and nobody wanted to concede.

[Тютчев]

Сообщение от kr555

Let's start with the fact that the exact date of release of these prints is not known, while it is generally accepted that a series of Hokusai created in 1820, and published it was estimated in 1830-1831, certainly not later than 1832. For Red Fuji British Museum gives dating 1830, Boston 1830-1831. Take, for convenience, dating 1831.

Anyway, I agree with you, but still in the Pushkin Museum of. Pushkin definitely have 2 imprint, dated 1829-1931 years from the series "Z6 species of Mount Fuji." This is lifetime impressions. And so they are particularly valuable.

Posted 8 minutes

Сообщение от kr555

Let's go further. The limit to which the original board you can get some impression how acceptable quality - from 8000 to 10000 fingerprints, after which the boards are a wreck. Organicheniya in circulation was not, engraving published continuously up until engraving bought. This series of Hokusai dismantled like hotcakes. Printing speed engraving - dozens of prints a week, we take for convenience 50. We get 200 a month, and 2500 a year. That is, if the average speed printing boards worn for 4 years, to 1835. No more prints from the original plates can not be, any printed from the original plates impression made from 1830 to 1835. Then only restrayki which there are several hundred variations.

The rate of wear plates in this series ("36 species of Mount Fuji"), with all due respect to you, this is only a guess. And peregravirovkami or copies of the directory named only 5 sheets of 1948. But all of 1829 and 1892 are printed from original plates by various publishers.

[kr555]

Сообщение от Tjutchev

In general, I agree with you, but still in GMII them. Pushkin definitely have 2 imprint, dated 1829-1931 years of the series "Z6 of Mount Fuji".

Well, 1931 is generally quite normal, and 29 th year, probably dates from a rare early version, but in general I would not trust GMII datings in any case. There are 2 major reference museum, in their best collections of Japanese art in the world, and the best specialists, it is British and Boston. And we have serious professionals alas no ...

Сообщение от Tjutchev

Speed wear boards, with all due respect to you, this is only a guess. And peregravirovkami or copies of the directory named only 5 sheets of 1948. And all from 1829 to 1892 are printed from original boards.

Now this figure I have not invented himself, she from specialized sources. In principle, as I wrote, the publisher could have someone to sell worn boards, cut your logo for print runs of cheap low-quality and technically this will also be printed from the original boards, but in reality after a maximum of 10 thousand original print edition ends , with the disappearance from an engraving of the original publisher.

As for peregravirovok - but I threw a link to an interview with Steiner, where he describes how he fought for them with the leadership of the Pushkin Museum ... Maybe nedoborolsya until the end, especially since it was removed from work before approval of the layout. Have you ever believe that with the original boards, printed 60 years? It's fantastic.

[Тютчев]

Сообщение от kr555

Thus, the dating of 1830-1835 it was amusing, for people who do not understand what it was about. Christie is no general way of dating for a single etching does not, even on a rare early version with a pink, not red Fuji, which they also sell. This variant retained only 5 pieces, it is known that this was a trial version, printed before the main circulation, and something just might be dated to 1830, but they do not make the approximate dates of principle.

In light of the foregoing, I have such a dating just makes sense. Well, judge for yourself if there is a large number of impressions, and those which were printed earlier, more valuable, why are dating, even if this does not make sense? From such a dating is clear that these prints were published in the artist's life, and they are more valuable. From this position, and we just started our interesting discussion. Getting started and to return. That is, published during the life of the artist's prints are more valuable than the printed after his death.

Posted 12 minutes

Сообщение от kr555

Now this figure I have not invented himself, she from specialized sources. In principle, as I wrote, the publisher could have someone to sell worn boards, cut your logo for print runs of cheap low-quality and technically this will also be printed from the original boards, but in reality after a maximum of 10 thousand original print edition ends , with the disappearance from an engraving of the original publisher.

I guess I'm not exactly put it. I was referring to the time (not speed) to wear it in this series ("36 species of Mount Fuji") which you deduce by calculation.

Сообщение от kr555

Have you ever believe that with the original boards, printed 60 years? It's fantastic.

The question is how much was made of prints. Do not forget that the demand for this series could be flat throughout the 60 years.
You can not approach this issue so mechanistically. A person not a machine, but history is not a computer program.