Japanese Prints

[kr555]

Сообщение от Tjutchev

Let's get with the terms. For you there is a difference between the concepts of "author's impression" and "original print"? For you, this is the meaning the same thing or not? If not, then what is the difference?

Actually, if you do not think globally, and on topic, it must be remembered that no copyright imprints in Japan were up to the twentieth century. The role of the artist was limited to the implementation of the original sketch in ink, and marking coloring engraving proofs. Further work on the engraving other people, and copyright has been a publisher, an artist no control over the process was not.

[Peter]

Thank you all for the interesting informatsiyu.Predlagaetsya engraving Hirosige Ando (Japan ,20-s) a respected firm of the prints 20000 rubley.Eto normal price for today? Grow if the price of similar products? Or just for fun?

[kr555]

Сообщение от Peter

Thank you all for the interesting informatsiyu.Predlagaetsya engraving Hirosige Ando (Japan ,20-ies) of one distinguished by the prints of 20000 rubley.Eto normal price for today? Grow if the price of similar products? Or only for fun?

20-ies of the century? Apparently XX? Then, in my opinion expensive, resell more expensive would be virtually impossible, and not the fact that there will be invested back.

[Тютчев]

Сообщение от kr555

Actually, if you do not think globally, but on topic, we must bear in mind that no copyright imprints in Japan was not up to the twentieth century. The role of the artist was limited to the implementation of the original sketch in ink, and marking coloring engraving proofs. Continue over the engraving work by other people, and copyrights are the publisher, the artist no control over the process was not.

kr555, please follow the discussion. Wladzislaw, when he wrote your message (to which I replied) thought it was "global" as you put it. It is clear from the context of the debate, he responded to postAmateur and that no doubt, wrote about the prints at all. Yes, and the subsequent postWladzislaw and, convinces us that he talks about the European prints, but not about the Japanese. As an example, he refers to an engraving of Cezanne.
 
But even if, as you suggest, "thinking about topography and talk only of Japanese prints, the concept of" lifetime impressions "are not meaningless, though, and finds Japanese-specific. Without a doubt, not only an artist but engraver and printmaker Japanese prints played a significant role in its creation. This is especially true of printers, who, after the artist had been discussed all shades of color, making the required number of prints (two hundred), ensuring coherence and harmony of the overall color score. Other words, the Japanese woodcut had collective method it is created. This means that the engraving could not be established without the concerted action of each of the participants in this process. And you will agree that the role of the artist in this process still predominant? I repeat, engravings created in coordination with the artist (although it probably was not often), what is, is possible only with his life. For example, we know that the artist Katsushika Hakusan watched the process of creating prints. His engravings from the series "Thirty-six Views of Mount Fuji" was sold for a very considerable sum ($ 1.340.000), and influenced by the price, in this case, not so much the rarity of the print, but what was known creation date imprint: he was printed in a first half of the 30's. XIX century, that precisely when the artist created this series and could in some degree of control over the process of creating impressions. Other prints of the same image, but do not have precise chronology, had been sold much cheaper (about $ 150.000 - $ 500.000), despite the fact that sold five years after the sale of print, which has established a record price. This means that for the person who bought this print, it was essential it is that impression was created with the artist's life.


Sales date 11/27/2002
Hammer price EUR 1,350,000
EUR 1,350,000 - USD 1,341,360 - GBP 864,675
Estimate EUR 1,400,000 - 1,800,000
   
Category Print
Collection Huguette Berès
Medium Print, Woodcut in colors (oban yoko e) (36)
Location Paris (FR)
Auction house Sotheby's
Dated c.1830-1835
Lot number 107

[kr555]

Сообщение от Tjutchev

kr555, please follow the discussion. Wladzislaw, when he wrote your message (to which I replied) thought it was "global" as you put it. It is clear from the context of the debate, he responded to postAmateur and that no doubt, wrote about the prints at all. Yes, and the subsequent postWladzislaw and, convinces us that he talks about the European prints, but not about the Japanese. As an example, he refers to an engraving of Cezanne.

No, I'm watching the debate, and just trying to get her back into a narrow specialized channel, otherwise we will all drown in it. Wladzislaw said here on this communication, which is just the first time it took to the side, because in Japan those days there were no prints made by the artist himself, he is in the best case could be allowed to monitor the process:

Posted by Tiutchev
If we are talking about something original prints are the ones that are made by the artist himself.

 

Сообщение от Tjutchev

But even if, as you suggest, "thinking about topography and talk only of Japanese prints, the concept of" lifetime impressions "are not meaningless, though, and finds Japanese-specific. Without a doubt, not only an artist but engraver and printmaker Japanese prints played a significant role in its creation. This is especially true of printers, who, after the artist had been discussed all shades of color, making the required number of prints (two hundred), ensuring coherence and harmony of the overall color score. Other words, the Japanese woodcut had collective method it is created. This means that the engraving could not be established without the concerted action of each of the participants in this process. And you will agree that the role of the artist in this process still predominant? I repeat, engravings created in coordination with the artist (although agree that it probably was not often), what is, is possible only with his life. For example, we know that the artist Katsushika Hakusan watched the process of creating prints. His engravings from the series "Thirty-six Views of Mount Fuji" was sold for a very considerable sum ($ 1.340.000), and influenced by the price, in this case, not so much the rarity of the print, but what was known creation date imprint: he was printed in a first half of the 30's. XIX century, that precisely when the artist created this series and could in some degree of control over the process of creating impressions. Other prints of the same image, but do not have precise chronology, had been sold much cheaper (about $ 150.000 - $ 500.000), despite the fact that sold five years after the sale of print, which has established a record price. This means that for the person who bought this print, it was essential it is that impression was created with the artist's life.

That's be honest, I do not know what it is guided by a man who paid entirely unreasonable money for this engraving. Intravital here a little, so please, exactly the same lifetime impression of 1830-1831 in excellent condition, sold at Christie's for $ 239.649, and this is his red price, and can be even cheaper to buy.
http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/l...0-21bf4862f9ad
I guess (on the photo is hard to understand) that he print, who left behind a million-plus, differed a unique preservation. Then it does not and can not be a firm price, such copies of the famous engravings in the state "like yesterday published" isolated and virtually priceless, but the price is determined only by fanaticism want to get it.

In general, the quality of prints is very much falls as overprint circulation. The first copies look awesome, the line thickness of hair, bright colors, perfect geometry. If the engraving was popular, it was printed for several years, and later during his lifetime impressions can not watch without tears ... All the same wood is soft, razdalbyvaetsya very quickly. So it is important that it was not just a lifetime, but the number of the very first printed.

[Тютчев]

Сообщение от kr555

No, I'm watching the debate, and just trying to bring it back into a narrow, specialized channel, otherwise we will all drown in it. Wladzislaw said here on this communication, which is just the first time it took to the side, because in Japan those days there were no prints made by the artist himself, he is in the best case could be allowed to monitor the process:

Wladzislaw reply to this message:

Сообщение от Amateur

No one will ever be able to manually make an absolutely identical copy.
Any - later or in vivo - a copy was in the middle of the XIX century is quite easy to distinguish from the original using a mirror stereoscope Helmholtz. Even the difference virtuosic Armand Durand copies from the originals by Rembrandt is in the full sense of the word "obvious." However, it needs to have a notorious original. But because the prints are not made in one copy, then the museum is not a problem. That's to distinguish late imprinted with the same original board of intravital is really easy, but here sometimes it helps to know watermarks and other attributes of paper used for printing with the artist's life. The same problem with late heliogravire, but prized reputation of the company necessarily indicate a print that - geliogravyurnaya copy.

In this message, you see, is it on the engraving at all. It's so obvious.

And my message, he said, referring to European prints. This is evidenced by the fact that he cites as an example an engraving of Cezanne.

Сообщение от Wladzislaw

Original prints are those that are printed with the original boards. Prints can be supravital, and may be not.
Circulation, as correctly pointed out above, often can be distinguished on the paper.
For example, there is an engraving Cezanne, which was published after his death. And shalt artist does not make their own prints.

[kr555]

And about how Hokusai watched the printing process - will give here an example. Let them be the same Red Fuji, if nothing about it it came from the collection of the Boston MFA:
http://www.mfa.org/collections/searc...x=0&submit.y=0
They have a collection of six prints, and easy to see that among them there are no two identical (even if we discard the third, which is a side option, imprinted with the other blocks). The boundary between red and green dancing totally unpredictable way, never the author of such would not be allowed, if the process is actually controlled. But in reality it is only noted in black and white a print 2 colors, and an indication of a smooth transition from one to another. Next - art printer ...

[Тютчев]

Сообщение от kr555

 That's be honest, I do not know what it is guided by a man who paid entirely unreasonable money for this engraving. Intravital here a little, so please, exactly the same lifetime impression of 1830-1831 in excellent condition, sold at Christie's for $ 239.649, and this is his red price, and can be even cheaper to buy.
http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/l...0-21bf4862f9ad
I guess (on the photo is hard to understand) that he print, who left behind a million-plus, differed a unique preservation. Then it does not and can not be a firm price, such copies of the famous engravings in the state "like yesterday published" unique and virtually priceless, but the price is determined only by the fanaticism of his wish to acquire.

Engraving, which bring you, not dated, and engraving, which led me, dated (1830-1835 year).
 
Preservation, quality of prints and unusual color combinations - all this can play a role in the formation of prices. But in this case clearly established that the imprint of the first edition, and it is so significantly affected the price.

Added after 1 minute

Сообщение от kr555

Yes, and do not want to argue on who is first in the left side, it's not terrible, and no matter ...

Granted, it does not matter ...

Added after 5 minutes

Сообщение от kr555

In general, the quality of prints greatly decreases as the impression circulation. The first copies look awesome, the line thickness of hair, bright colors, perfect geometry. If the engraving was popular, it was printed for several years, and later during his lifetime impressions can not watch without tears ... All the same tree is soft, razdalbyvaetsya very quickly. So it is important that it was not just a lifetime, but among the very first printed.

So because this question! First impressions are appreciated it is run. In the creation of which could participate artist (of course, not to the same extent as in Europe or in the subsequent years of prints), and the quality of which was better than subsequent runs. I wrote about this earlier, pointing to a collective method of creating prints, and the fact that the first edition was about the number of two hundred impressions. Incidentally, in the further development of the engravings that prints belong to the first edition, which is published by the artist himself (or under its supervision), reflected in a special term - "copyright prints - and the prices (these prints are on the order of cost). As for the series "36 Views of Mount Fuji", it is known that Katsushika Hakusan watched the process of creating prints of engravings. Hence, the price of the print, dated the first half of the 30-ies. This time, the creation of this series.

Читать дальше... 

Posted 10 minutes
Probably the case with Hakusan not typical for the Japanese prints of the time, but to reject it, we can not.

Posted 27 minutes

Сообщение от kr555

And about how Hokusai watched the process of printing - give here an example. Let them be the same Red Fuji, if nothing about it it came from the collection of the Boston MFA:
http://www.mfa.org/collections/searc...x=0&submit.y=0
They have a collection of six prints, and easy to see that among them there are no two identical (even if we discard the third, which is a side option, imprinted with the other blocks). The boundary between red and green dancing totally unpredictable way, never the author of such would not be allowed, if the process is actually controlled. But in reality it is only noted in black and white a print 2 colors, and an indication of a smooth transition from one to another. Next - art printer ...

I am in no way diminishes the role of the printing industry. In the Japanese prints that time he played a very significant role, I was just about this and write:

Сообщение от Tjutchev

  Without a doubt, not only an artist but engraver and printmaker Japanese prints played a significant role in its creation. This is especially true of printers, who, after the artist had been discussed all shades of color, making the required number of prints (two hundred), ensuring coherence and harmony of the overall color score.

Typically, the artist did not interfere in the process of creating impressions, but in the case of the Hakusan know that he watched their creation. I think that control was not total, but even if he was, as he was, as we know, this makes the prints in this series and this time more desirable for collectors.

Posted by 31 minutes
By the way it is known that Hakusan, before becoming an artist, he published engravings. This may have played a role in his desire to monitor the printing process prints.

Posted by 52 minutes

Сообщение от kr555

They have a collection of six prints, and easy to see that among them there are no two identical (even if we discard the third, which is a side option, imprinted with the other blocks). The boundary between red and green dancing totally unpredictable way, never the author of such would not be allowed, if the process is actually controlled. But in reality it is only noted in black and white a print 2 colors, and an indication of a smooth transition from one to another. Next - art printer ...

You see, the creation of prints - a process in which the printer for coherence and harmony of the overall color score, regardless of whether it occurred under the supervision of the artist or not. Even if the artist in control process, to achieve exactly the same impressions impossible. Nor was such a problem. It was the search for harmony! This is so in tune with the spirit of Japan and the spirit of creativity ...

By the way, just exactly what, as you say, "the boundary between red and green dancing", and valued in the author prints. Valued this particular search - "game" of the artist. When a business takes printing worker, prints are more smooth quality and called the lottery (they cost several times cheaper). But if we talk about Europe in general and about the later stages of the prints. This is so, by the way ...

[kr555]

Сообщение от Tjutchev

Engraving, which bring you dated, and engravings, which led me dated (1830-1835 year).
 
Preservation, quality of prints and rare color combinations, can all play a role in the formation of prices. But in this case clearly established that the imprint of the first edition and it is so significantly affected the price.

No, it's not dating, but amusing ... Hokusai was working on this series from 1826 to 1830, and somewhere at the turn of 1830 and 1831 it was published. If there was a belief that the engraving of the very first edition, you should put the 1830-1831 and 1835 - is the devil knows what kind of impression on the account. Sold at Christie's engraving can also be confidently dated to 1830-1835, but this dating is not much point.
I think the buyer with the help of its experts was able to establish that he sold at Sotheby's imprint is one of the first, why pay so much money. Not because Sotheby's has put the approximate spread of dates.

In general, for the rest, I agree, can not even see what else to argue

[Тютчев]

Сообщение от kr555

No, it's not dating, but amusing ... Hokusai worked on this series from 1826 to 1830, and somewhere at the turn of 1830 and 1831 it was published. If there was a belief that the engraving of the very first edition, it should put the 1830-1831 and 1835 - is the devil knows what kind of impression on the account. Sold at Christie's engraving can also be confidently dated to 1830-1835, but this dating is not much point.
I think the buyer with the help of its experts was able to establish that he sold at Sotheby's imprint is one of the first, why pay so much money. Not because Sotheby's has put the approximate spread of dates.

In general, for the rest, I agree, can not even see what else to argue

Yet with the dating of all is not so, as you write. Hokusai began work on the series in late 1820 and intended to make a hundred engravings. However, only 36 were issued sheets, which later added ten more. For example, in the collection of the Pushkin Museum are 19 prints in this series - 14 of them were published between 1829 - 1892 years, various publishers, and 5 - peregravirovki 1948. As you can see, there are engravings published already in the 29 th year. And they were published throughout the XIX century with the very boards that were cut initially. Ie used the same boards that are cut first engraver. And only a change in printers. Naturally, the published proofs can be classified by the quality of print, which affects the state board (which, by itself, of course, will wear out over time). In other words, from a qualitative impression of a less quality. If you classify impressions by the result of the printer, then the collector must have, and it will be important, these prints were printed in the printer, receiving counseling or a Hokusai prints, printed when it was impossible for natural reasons. It is known that the artist followed the process of making prints, and therefore, he could do it in the late 20's - 30's. Although probably a major role in determining the value of engravings for the collector of Japanese prints of the 19 th century is the quality of print and rare. What was once it is printed so it is more qualitative.
 
Apparently there was some possibility of more or less accurate dating, if kept in the Pushkin Museum reprint of this series, dated 29 th year. But be aware that the sequence of creation of prints is not installed. Hokusai applied in a series of three different signatures: "Hokusai kai Iitsu hitsu", "Hokusai Iitsu" and "Zen Hokusai Iitsu hitsu". Perhaps the earliest are nine prints, signed Hokusai kai Iitsu hitsu "(Hokusai, changed his name to Iitsu"), which include such well-known engravings as Red Fuji, The Great Wave, and Mount Fuji during a thunderstorm. This means that it is possible to date the prints on some other grounds. And, most likely, that in some cases dating can be accurate to indicate the year of publication, and some only with the relevant time frame in which the prints could be issued (as in the case imprint, which was sold at auction for $ 1,340,000 and referred to above).
 
I do not think that the engravings, sold for an impressive sum, it is "the devil knows what kind of impression." I think experts managed to establish exactly what impression it was published between 1830 and 1835 years. Prints the late 20's and early 30's. Probably in the market there is not much that makes this an extremely valuable impression.
 
The print, which was sold at Christie's (the one that you have shown above), was classified by experts to print made later. No other reasonable explanation for this difference in price I do not see. Why are you so sure this impression belong to the same period (30-35-ies.)? Do you have a good reason? I think if the experts Christie would your confidence, then they certainly would indicate the most accurate date. And it would be logical, because it would increase the cost of the lot and would allow the auction house to earn more money. This is the meaning auction. Perhaps this confidence was a collector. And if he was right then it turns out that he bought this lot as erroneously undervalued. From what we can congratulate him.
 
The auction house had set the date as accurately as possible. This is necessary in order to determine estimeyt for this lot and bring it to the attention of potential buyers. You understand, this is also dictated by the logic of the auction. A guided buyer dating auction house or not, we do not know. Also, for us it remains a mystery, he determined the value of that impression or have consulted with experts, but you must admit it is not so important.

Discussion with an interesting conversationalist - a pleasure. The main provisions, I absolutely agree with you. And thanks for the excuse to get deeper into this interesting topic.

I am sure that most (perhaps all) of the facts and the provisions cited by me in this and other messages were you aware of before me. But for the orderliness of presentation without them was hard.
 
The most famous engravings from the series "36 species of Mount Fuji": Red Fuji, The Great Wave, and Mount Fuji during a storm.