December 11, 1699, Peter I founded St. Andrew's flag as the official flag of Russia

[Fed]

If there was a desire to maintain the tradition of Russian , the flag should be:
The cloth is triangular in shape, red in color with a golden Orthodox cross. (roughly as in Figure 1) .

Realizing that the red flag is regarded by some of Nicholas worse , could be modified :

The cloth is triangular in shape, golden Orthodox cross on a blue ribbon of St. Andrew. Most of the " headscarf " - red ( as in Figure 2) .

And in the current interpretation of published something like , as on other drawings.

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Сообщение от Cyril Syzran ; 1884831"

What is there to write? Everyone knows that blue and yellow flag , used Cossacks Mazepa , sided with the Charles XII and formed the flag of the Swedish flag colors

It is known that not everyone, but only the elect. It is interesting to watch the documentary evidence .
  But! Comedy is the perception that the transition in Russia is one , and the territory of Ukraine is another . Ukrainian Cossacks Peter was as an ally, as the Swedes or the Tartars to the Turks. The fact that at the time they were under the Russian protectorate did not prevent them to be dissatisfied with harassment. why Sich and moved to the allies the Swedes.
At this time a political maneuver failed, and a free whip had been destroyed.

But , as you know , who's fine, but someone out there is a very big question.
and accurately to the flag is not on .

[Fed]

Сообщение от Kirill Syzran ; 1884831 '

What is there to write? Everyone knows that blue and yellow flag , used Cossacks Hetman Mazepa, have fallen to the side of Charles XII , and formed the flag of the Swedish flag colors

We know it's not all, but only to the elite . It is interesting to see the documentary evidence .
  But! Comedy is the perception that the transition in Russia is one , and the territory of Ukraine is another . Ukrainian Cossacks , Peter was as an ally , like the Swedes or the Tartars to the Turks . The fact that at the time they were under the Russian protectorate did not prevent them from being dissatisfied with harassment , why Sich and the Swedes moved to the Allies .
At this time political maneuver failed, and free to whip had been destroyed.

But, as you know, who's well done , but someone out there is a very big question.
And just for the flag is not on .

[Кирилл Сызранский]

Сообщение от Fed; 1885051"

comedy is that the perception of the transition in Russia is one , and the territory of Ukraine is another .

I agree.

Сообщение от Fed; 1885051"

And just for the flag is not on .

" Belonging ", alas . Those " Ukrainian Cossacks " that were on the side of the Swedes with a yellow- blue flags at their peak , together with the Swedes were defeated :
, but close, close moment of victory .
Hooray! we is broken , bent Swedes.
On a glorious hour! a glorious sight!
More pressure - and the enemy flees.
And after the cavalry set off ,
Murder tupyatsya swords
And the whole steppe was covered with fallen ,
Like a swarm of locusts black . ( c) >

[Fed]

About cops and fantasy.

And the color - easily traced historically:
"In 1848. Ruthenians - Ukrainians in Lviv have created a representative body and authority of national governments - Head Russian parliament. Commission of the Parliament May 18, 1848 , it was decided : to consider " the banner of the Russian land - a lion, and colors - yellow and blue."
As the prototype was made standard, known in history as veksillografii " Galician Lion" : golden crowned lion " vosstayuschy " on a blue (azure) background , climbing the golden rock.

In the description of Polish military units ( banners ), participated in the Battle of Grunwald in 1415 , twelve issues banner called the "land of Leopolskoy ( Lviv ), had a yellow flag at the lion, vshodyaschego like a rock , on an azure field ."

In addition to Lviv , pay attention to the colors of coats of arms of cities of Ukraine .

I think besides the banners of the Cossacks on the Black Sea last figure , and this is sufficient to determine , from which went to color.

[artist]

Fed, I, in fact, to you)
And sorry for the confusion ... underwritten I am sure that we get in fights, and continuing educational games?)))
 
We are embarking on territoiyu of Heraldry, on which he broke his leg Vilenbahov, and no one))) Let me speak out, because one party vedus of Chernigov and family coat of arms I have, so that the question of interest.

You mentioned that "Golovna Ruska Rada" defined: count «flag of the Russian land - a lion, and colors - yellow and blue» in 1848. Prekrasno0, But what is Ukraine?!

Let's see ... 1848 year. Why 1848? And it was kind of organization? Vela does it speak about Ukraine?

Knowing that the main ideological postulate of the Ukrainian nationalist or, more precisely, the separatist movement is the assertion that the Ukrainians - it's people, quite apart from the "Muscovites", that is the modern Russian (Great), can be assumed that in 1848 "Golovna Ruska Rada" unconditionally performed with just such a position, and that between "head Rusko Rada" and later appeared in Galicia, Ukrainian political movement, imbued fierce hatred of Russia and everything Russian, there is a direct and inextricable link. However, this is - an assumption ...

Historical digression:

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After the 1772, the (the first partition of Poland) the land of the ancient Galich, captured by Poland in XIV century, moved to Austria,, the Austrian authorities who sought to weaken the influence of the Polish gentry in Galicia, had some support for Galician Ruthenians. But when the second (1793) and the third (1795) sections of the Polish right-bank Ukraine, Volhynia and Podolia allied with Russia, then the border between Russia and Austria agreed Zbruch, the Austrians have changed their attitude towards Galician Ruthenians for fear of possible claims by Russia Rus Galicia. Instead of the original name of the Ruthenians - "Russian" (Russen), the Austrian authorities had started to apply the term of Latin origin "Ruthenians" (Ruthenen).

But this "authorities have adopted ..." just. An indication of the nationality of a spoken language. Do you agree?

After a failed uprising against Russia in the 1830-31 years., Which was designed to recreate Poland's borders that existed prior to the first section of the Polish gentry raised in 1846, the revolt against Austria. Center of the uprising was in the western part of Polish Galicia. Vostanie was suppressed by the Austrians, who are in need of counterweight otchetlevey Poles in Galicia. And this could become a counterbalance to the Galician Ruthenians.

The governor of Galicia, Count Franz Stadium to win the support of the peasantry, sent to Vienna as soon as possible a proposal to abolish panschinu in Galicia, and in April 1848, the emperor issued an edict whereby panschina (variant of serfdom right) in Galicia was abolished on the date of 15 May 1848 of the year.

Vienna has consistently created the very opposed the Polish revolutionary movement in its territory (is not a Ukrainian!) in Galicia.
Cancel panschiny peasantry did a full estate, and provided the opportunity to gain national rights of the Ruthenians.
If in the previous period a policy of Polonization Ruthenians, now, in 1848 year, took Ruthenians dissociate from the Poles.

At the initiative of Governor F. Galician Ruthenians Stadium representatives of April 19, 1848 a petition addressed to the young Emperor Franz Joseph.
The petition was written in German, but in May 1848 a translation was published in the 2nd issue of the newspaper "Zorya Galitskaya", gazette "head Rusko Rada " (By Hrushevsky, Ukrainian organization) . The petition, in part:

"Sered universal joy vsh people and lifting narodov krotkim skiptrom Your Majesty zhіyuschyh derzaem and we residents east Galitsіi throne of Your Majesty and for priblizhitisya prirechennu vsm narodam Avstrіyskoy imperіi konstitutsіyu naypokornyshe blagodariti. ...

Far more than half the people are the Rusyns Galitsіi. They are branches of the great slovenskogo kind. And we imli kolis svoih vlasnyh rodstvennyh Princes iz pokolnya sv.Vladymra. Yak tіi extinct, lost our beloved fatherland Bb another polovin fourteenth vka independence. "" Ruskіy narod remaining in vsh sih politicheskih and religіynyh buryah krpok and nepokolibim. .."

Next request:

a) In order to vsh narodnyh uchilischah ... (In those districts where the population is entirely or mostly) Rusca is, training uchilischnoe Bb ruskom yazyts teach "; ...

d) That the boundary, all ye right royal orders and uhvaly vsh prochih uryadov Ruscam Narodowe Bb ruskoy mov ogoloshalisya ... Iz this slduet as well;

e) That the police officials Bb this part of the Ruthenians zeselenoy Galitsіi postavlyaemy People Ruska could movu good, ...

h) That Thou rusinam takim Narodni all ye, all ye Uryadov and also urban and rural sluzhenіya dystvitelno were paroxysmal. "

May 2, 1848, with the assistance of Count Stadion organization was established Galician Ruthenians, called "Leading Ruska Rada". But there is Ukraine!

Moreover, Count Stadion, who tried to separate from the Poles and Ruthenians send them against the Poles, lingering concerns at the expense of the Galician Ruthenians odnoplemennosti with Russian in Russia, and the complications in this regard for Austria in the future, which required not to allow signs in all-Russian Rusyn national consciousness.

Therefore, when a delegation of Galician Ruthenians came to the graph Stadium with a proposal to grant the Ruthenians national rights, he said that if they are the same people that in Russia, and if they use the same language and the same letter that in Russia, then they can not count on the support of the Austrian government.

When you first have the opportunity to gain Ruthenian national law, the answer to these questions, it does not meet the government could deprive them of this possibility. And they replied that no, they are different people - not Russian (Russen), and the Ruthenians (Ruthenen), Russia's population schismatic (ie, Orthodox) , and they themselves to not consider it, and writing them - it's just an old church letter.

In 1866 year, the Galician Ruthenians as expounded (the newspaper "word") these events:
"Bb 1848 rots inquired nas, scho are we? We said we scho vsesmirennyshіi Ruthenen (Gospodi! If our forefathers learned scho we are called himself tym imenem, nas yakim christened during our gonenіya naylyutyshіi vorogi, they wiggled grobah Bb-b Xia). ... A Mauger russkіi you? doproshal nas Stadіon. We cursed soul-tlo, scho we russkіi not Russen, but we did scho sob Ruthenen, scho our borders to Zbruch, scho we repelled ot tak zvanyh Russen, Thou ot okayannyh shizmatikov, be with whom nichogo Vspolny imti not hochem. Yakoe your letter? doproshali nas daly. We said our letter Toe scho, scho Bb tserkovnyh knigah and znovu cursed soul-tlo ot ... citizen, which we deny, Thou a stranger. "
"Bo Xia nastrashiliby then nas were schoby we relate istorіeyu tysyachiltnoyu, obryadom tserkovnym, yazykom literature and be with velikim russkim narodom not zabagli if ot Avstrіi otorvatisya, and were not allowed to nas svobod konstitutsіynyh would be nas slabenkih then strangled, schobysmo and dyhnuli dyhanem russkim. ". (here, I think everything is clear without translation? Dialect 1866 - no subsequent invention.)

Thus the Ruthenians in the face of the Austrian authorities have pleaded some people "Ruthenians", then took their own name, which was introduced and was used by the Austrians in Galicia and all who were hostile, in fact, Russia. However, "ruthenium".

The conclusion is simple - Whichever option is not elected himself "Head Ruska Rada", what have the Ukraine?)

NOW on the flag and PR.

The one given to you first - the element of heraldry Galicia-Volyn principality Rurik, where, although there was an episode of "King of Russia", but whose history is ended 1349, the if not mistaken. And the earth swallowed him and his men were Poland (RP) and ON (but not Ukraine, of course). Next was the Polish-Lithuanian War of Succession, but they ran out of 1392

In 1410 (banner "Leopolskaya») Lviv was Polish fortress. So the question: where does the Ukraine?

Generally history, in fact, Cossack and Ukrainian, as you no doubt know, somehow (folklore) is reflected only in the second half of the XV, for the most part XVI cc. Heraldry on these lands has not been developed, and if there was a sergeant, then was borrowed - Polish or German traditions (imitative).

Sich used as a "favorite" colors, yellow, red, blue, black and crimson with no obvious preference (so that on this occasion did not think the Austrian historian Hrushevsky)) )

The assertion that the "Ukrainian Cossacks Peter was as an ally, like the Swedes or the Tartars to the Turks. The fact that at the time they were under the Russian protectorate did not prevent them to be dissatisfied with harassment, why Sich and turned into allies the Swedes. "
at least, far from the truth, and born of the same Grushevskii his comrades. It could not be (however a massive scale) within the same faith. Documented known that the 40 - 42 000 Cossacks (30 000 registry and 10-12 - sechevnikov) , Mazepa brought about 10 000 (3000, 7000 and the registered sechevnikov, for which they then hit) and others stayed with Peter. A little later, the documents have only glimpses of 2000 "faithful" ...

The allegation, saying that the color used in the past ... as convincing as moskovsie stories about three banners: red, blue and white, ostensibly imposed for special occasions. May be imposed, or maybe not ... And maybe even a green and carried ...)))

Coats of arms of cities compiled at different times and different heraldry (Polish, Austrian, Hungarian, and in XVIII - XIX centuries. Heraldry Department of the Ruling Senate of the Russian Empire). Sometimes, things taken into consideration, sometimes to invent something. Confident source of these arms can not be.

Thus, for all its anecdotal, history with Cossacks Mazepa and Swedish flag, unlike all the other logical: as more easily identify their membership in the Swedish army? This is reasonable, at least, not strained ...
With her shy, if, still, deep historical roots in the paradigm promoted (Ukrainians - a people completely separate from the "Muscovites") not?
What is the story of many other heraldic worse stories? Betrayal? But, according to you, it turns out that there was nothing, if the "Ukrainian Cossacks Peter was as an ally, as the Swedes or the Tartars to the Turks"?

[Fed]

Сообщение от artist; 1887151"

secessionist movement is the assertion that the Ukrainians - it's people, quite apart from the "Muscovites"

You use the word "Ukraine", as the antithesis of the word of Russian. But, as you remember, and themselves have indicated, "Muscovites. And this is a big difference associated with the substitution of notions in the Russian Federation, where resentment of Russia perceive as "anti-Russian", believing that if the "Russia", it means that it contains, and Russian.

Although it is just a major Russian principality. But not only the "Russian world".

Rusyns have indicated their princes, than in Moscow, and accordingly, they wanted continuity and symbols, colors.

 Not surprisingly, the Lions picked up and color, and he was the king-peas on the present border, or for, now what is the point.
The idea of ​​the yellow-blue coloring is inherent in what is now Ukraine was historically. Hence the current color.

After Nicholas tricolor was taken because in the 17th century, N-ный king used the like the colors in the N-dipole moment (along with many others before and after this point). That is, draw just is not better than the blue-yellow crests the oldest Ukrainian cities. And though you do not believe that these colors were used in the coats of arms, but the above are 17. and if you and this is not agree, the founders of the current symbols were more trusting.

By the way, you forgot the Black Sea Cossack flags, one to one with the current. Worse than they were for the takeover than a king?

Bottom line: in heraldry of Ukraine - a small trolley cart and blue-yellow flowers that they can not borrow. We had much to try to somehow take the other.

Stories about the Swedish flag from the same opera that: Nicholas entered by attacking the French, or in almost complete imitation of the Dutch, as he was their cousin (which, as you know, more likely).

[Кирилл Сызранский]

Сообщение от Fed

That is,
draw just is not better than the blue-yellow crests the oldest Ukrainian cities.

Are you talking about Lviv /Lemberg?
Capital Województwo ruskie or Königreich Galizien und Lodomerien mit dem Großherzogtum Krakau und den Herzogtümern Auschwitz und Zator?

About this "Ukrainian" city?
>

[Fed]

No, I'm about Smolensk- native "Russian" city .

Lions , now in Ukraine, but if you're against, Kiev and Kamenetz , with their flowers in the arms , enough to color the Ukraine.
Or the coat of arms of Dnipropetrovsk and all Ekaterinoslav province , evaluate flag Grand Don Army , 1918, and only as a blue - yellow in the Hetman's armorial bearings, including the legendary Bohun .

You talk in the direction of increase , 5 posts ago, a good reception in the polemical style of " the fool ", but we discussed the other flags .

Admit it , because you have to be really strange to introduce Nicholas flag . Abolished the red yellow, which was the native majority , with historical color , and led the flag unloved king - such as nose - poked all that you did, what killed your grandfathers and fathers of nonsense. We will do everything the old or the White Guard , as someone like the most .

And then wonder continuation of civil war.

[Кирилл Сызранский]

Сообщение от Fed

Admit it, because you have to be really strange to introduce Nicholas flag.

This is not a "flag of Nicholas," and the national flag of the Russian Empire, and for him, too many people were killed.

Added after 2 minutes

Сообщение от Fed

what killed your grandfathers and fathers of nonsense.
We will do everything the old or the White Guard

My grandfather fought in World under this flag, and also a civil not a sovdepovskim, yeah.

[Fed]

Well then , he's very good , positive and most importantly - uniting the nation.

Сообщение от Cyril Syzran ; 1887961"

in the First World fought under that flag

 I guess he fought under the banner of the regiment .

Zhirinovsky: "The current white- blue-red tricolor -" is a flag of Kerensky and Vlasov . " Who would respect a flag ? We can not respect , because it's nobody's flag .
Officially, the white-blue- red flag became the state of modern Russia by decree of the first President Boris Yeltsin. "Yeltsin has died, but the flag stayed . '" Note - this is not Ukrainian . nationalists , and the deputy speaker of Russia.

Half of Russians do not remember the state flag.