Старый 29.07.2008, 19:01 Язык оригинала: Русский       #1
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По умолчанию The Second Russian Avant-Garde "



Mikhail Grobman: "We are already part of history»
Mikhail Grobman, artist and poet, the patriarch of the new Russian art, who lives in Israel, agreed to comment on the sale of his archives to the private Moscow museum Art4.ru. In an interview with the famous Moscow art collector Victor Novichkova Mikhail Grobman tells what the "second Russian avant-garde" is different from the "unofficial art" and explains the increase in prices of non-conformist artists, as well as refines its own place in art history.
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Your archive was sold to the museum Igor Markin, becoming an important part of this museum. Tell me, what it represents. - More precisely, not the archive was sold to me, and the museum acquired Markina archive Grobman. That Igor Markin was the initiator of the process. What is the purpose in Markina, with its museum - is he can tell, in any case, he means the most serious, and I hope that he really will be the new Tretyakov. As for my collection, then its wrong to call the second archive of Russian avant-garde. I would call it an encyclopedia of all the documentary unfolded Russian art from the XVIII century. Books, albums, catalogs, newspaper and magazine publications, and documents.

- Why did you start to collect documents and books? Can you say how many storage units? - When the meeting finally goes to the museum Markina, will clear the volume, I myself still do not even understand how much of this collection. That no one ever did.

Why collect? The love of Russian art. K-forgotten artists. Or love for the artists who were not forgotten, but were young and made a new art.

- When did you started collecting? - It was a very long time, I can not say for sure, especially since so much was lost when moving from Russia to Israel in the 71-th year.

Because the archive is related to the study and to work on the history of Russian art, I want to talk not about the art and the history of Russian art. To say a few words long.

Despite the fact that already in the 60 years finally took shape what is now called the second Russian avant-garde, to this day about it no one really knows. This is remarkable: in Russian art has occurred, we can say revolution, it took only a minimum of 50 years, and nobody knows anything, all is forgotten.
  But what about the numerous exhibitions, catalogs, publications? This subject is now being actively present in the art, at least on the surface is visible. - Present art. But all these exhibitions, almost without exception, accompanied by the illiterate, biased commentary. Everyone pulls the blanket over himself. Galleries interested in a particular artist, of course, begin to twist the story around the name. The words "great", "brilliant", "great" applies to anything. The real value of the artist no one understood. For each artist, but the talent and beauty that he creates, there is a certain value. Who he was, what he did, what influence did. Here begins the confusion.

- And can it be restored? And who is able to do, because time is running out, people go ... - This will never, and no one did. And then, when we were young, and now, in post-Soviet reality. In the history of Russian art is still no chapter on the true story that began in the second half of XX century. Each establishes a hierarchy, which is advantageous.

- And, say, in contemporary American art, it exists? - Of course. Today in the West building of the hierarchy is parallel with the development of art. No one is not long in obscurity, the geniuses of invaluable not. Corrections and adjustments are always made, because every time creates a lot of popular artists, from which the remaining units.

And if you do not do the same job for the second Russian avant-garde, it then lost it all already gone: I - one of the last people who can tell the truth about this time. Artists'm not interested in other people's affairs, each does his. For this to be art historians, but they were not there and no.

- A collectors and popularization of art, as Talochkin, Glezer, Dodge and the like, which had tried to concentrate, to analyze? - All these names you have no relation to the analysis. These people collect Russian paintings, buying them at their own taste.

Say Talochkin was fanatically devoted to this art. His whole apartment was filled with paintings. The children huddled on the edge of, doing homework. A man has collected a huge amount of garbage and debris that was brought to the end. In the debris he had diamonds, but in art he did not understand anything.

In Glaser, the same situation. Let's start with the fact that Glazer was one-sided and always inclined to the group that has developed around Oscar Rabin. In the beginning, just beginning, he practically all of us bought a one-two-three works. But then, when he is at your own risk became operational, making the exhibition abroad, he appeared a lot of rubbish, things that did not have any significance. Indeed, Glaser has caused harm to the Russian art, making exhibitions in non-prestigious locations. A great number of exhibitions. He fussed all the time, not recognized by any Western museum, nor a criticism. Rabin, he gave as Solzhenitsyn in painting. Well, someone, tell me, care about "Solzhenitsyn in painting" in the West?

- Why not? Solzhenitsyn because in the literature of interest, why picturesque Solzhenitsyn was not interesting? - Solzhenitsyn - is it a political rather than literary. Serve Rabin as "Solzhenitsyn's painting" it's like to promote in the West Kramskogo or Perov, that is a dead issue.

West is well aware of where art, where the conversation is at. All people who understand the art, can determine where it ends and art begins sociality. We had to show Rabin as a man who is one of the first developing a conceptual. Then the interest in him would have been completely different.

Until now, few know that the first conceptual work, in fact, were made in Russia, in Moscow we have, even before they appeared in America. It missed in the West for a simple reason - they, no one has shown they just do not know. When they did, it turned out that in the West there is great interest in the Russian conceptualism. But Glaser never understood this, and therefore could not properly file a Russian art in the West.

Or, say, Dodge. Collected an enormous collection, transformed into a museum Tsimerli. The same problem - about ten per cent of the good work. Everything else is garbage.

- You are in my journal "Mirror" is constantly publishing material on the second Russian Avant-garde, in the UFO the book of memories. All this together creates a picture of the second Russian avant-garde or not? - These memories should be treated with great caution: the artists, like actors, they like to pull the blanket over himself. The problem is that written to be a critical test, but nobody checked. When I read I will not say whose memories - I see where he told the truth, where he became interested in a little bit, where he became interested in consciously and unconsciously where. But no one else can read it all to realize: people do not know really existing situation.

You have to understand that our environment is perceived alien, KGB or the Union as a community of artists. We were united community. But within that circle was still a large number of different divisions.

There were single mothers, such as Weisberg or Krasnopevtsev. Was a group - Plavinsky, Zverev, Kharitonov. Sometimes artists flows from one group to another. Grobman, Yakovlev - a separate group, also belonged to her Pyatnitskii, Kurochkin, Zelenin, etc. Perhaps this is the most extensive group was.

There was also Lianozovo - Rabin, Nemukhin, Masterkova, Leo Krapivnitskaya, ie formed on the basis of the teachings of the Patriarch Evgeny Leonidovich Krapivnitskogo.

Who did I miss? There was a group at one time - Kabakov, Yankilevsky, Grobman, Unknown. This is the issue of overflow: Grobman with Yakovlev one group, and Grobman Kabakov and Yankilevsky - another. While we were all connected in fact.

I remember being met Volodya Weisberg. That was in 1960 in the house Chaliapin Ilya Ioganovicha Tsirlina. Opens the door, is a tall man, Ilya Tsirlin us are familiar. Weisberg And loudly shouted "Oh, everything full circle. Now I know the last person that I did not know. "

It was not just a burst of emotion, it was very accurately stated: the circle was, and the range was indeed closed. In 1960, he has closed and began to exist independently from the whole of Soviet culture. And no history of our group was not engaged. Although the first collectors appeared quite early.

- Who was that? - This research was neither then nor later. Early collectors - is, for example, Vadim Stoller, who had a large collection. It was and Kostaki dealing mainly Zverev. Novozhilov Academician collected Yakovlev, Sanovich - Veisberg, Richter - Krasnopevtsev Vasiliev - Yakovlev. I first saw the work of Yakovlev, the 1957-m Sasha Vasilyev on the walls.

We were called dissidents, nonconformists, gave the most absurd names, mostly invented by Western journalists. But our self then it was - "Moscow leftists. I coined the term "second Russian avant-garde", and for a long time, no one took it, preferring other titles. Now everyone uses this term.


- Why have you insisted on this term? - Because it was a new vanguard. Vanguard beginning of the century should be called "classical avant-garde. Second Russian Avant-garde artists was 39. When did the exhibition "Other Art", I have them counted 111 people. In other art may well be 111, but the second Russian avant-garde is not 111, namely 39.

Today everyone wants to belong to the second Russian avant-garde, and everyone who sells Russian art, artists call their "second Russian avant-garde", adds them to us. But the train left, and that all people should be then belong to, and not many years later.

Then there was the "unofficial art", which also should not be confused with the second Russian avant-garde. "Unofficial art" is not recognized by the authorities, was not considered proper, competent, fit. It was a lot of abstract, expressionist, surrealist, etc. Throughout the Soviet Union, it numbered several hundred people. In Tbilisi, Ukraine, Moldova I met with informal artists, doing the jobs under the various contemporary Western artists. But they were not the original artist, imitating Western art, its various manifestations.

- You will not find a single person, which could be included in your group? - Maybe the Georgian Auto Varazi, which made things somewhat like Daniel Spoerri, glued to the table cloth everything that stood on the table, including cigarette butts. Auto Varazi I like to join our group.

- A St. Petersburg comrades? - In Leningrad were very good artists, but artists, which include both the second Russian avant-garde, was not there.


- State the importance of these groups. - Means this: "the second Russian avant-garde" - 39 people, "unofficial Russian art" - a few hundred people. Most young people, although people came across from the old generation.

There was still left MOSH, ie progressive socialist realism. It's the artists who worked under the influence of Petrov-Vodkin, Konchalovsky, Lentulova and others, each had its own influence. That is, they existed under the influence of artists who were in opposition to the vanguard, in opposition to Malevich and the Constructivists. Falk and Tabor were their geniuses and idols.

Well, the last category - it is "official Russian art, which can be divided into" official "and" mouthpiece ". Officially - it Nalbandian, etc., painted portraits of the leaders. Court painter. And they were just the official artists who made Socialist Realism under Korovin or under Levitan, although mostly they were doing that reflected the socialist reality.

The main mark a watershed: the second Russian avant-garde - unofficial art. This is important, because no one still does not understand that there is a difference between them, confuse them all the time.

- What is the value of the second to the Russian avant-garde art? - All that was done in an informal art, has no value. It's been a repetition of the Western or even Russian backsides, not independent thought or independent work. Left MOSH - this is essentially eclectic, their things interesting as a social event, but they are not the event of fine arts. Nor is the event socialist realists and mouthpiece.

The only people who were doing their things on their own ideas for their own reasons - are people of the second Russian avant-garde. And all of them also can not accept unconditionally as remarkable artists which produced the revolution. For among the artists of the second Russian avant-garde were the people who is only interested in the earliest work, say, early 60's. And then they started doing something uninteresting.

It was altogether a fantastic artist, of which only legends remain. Vladimir Slepian. I do not even have time to meet him. Disappeared. He left Poland in 1958, and thence to France. One of the most fantastic shapes, from which nothing remains. We have published a "mirror" of his poems and letters.

It was something completely unrelated to the Soviet way of life. Many decades brought the Soviet man - and suddenly, only to stop the terror, was a new generation that has to think quite differently, as would the authorities.

West and East, we were then merged. Klee and Miro were for us the same figures as Kandinsky, Malevich. They were just as ours, like all the others.

- And now that - is not it? - Now it's all classic, everybody knows that, but try to understand the significance at a time when many more of these classics and classics-they were not. For example, the American pop art. They also worked in the 60's, as we are. We knew about them and appreciated, but not imitated. For us, it was colleagues, very distant from us. We had other ideas.

As an example, I could mention a number of works of Rabin or Kabakov, are the first shoots of conceptualism, ie new art, which the West has appeared only in the late 60's. We have several years ahead of them. In 1964 I already had a collage with Stalin, which Joseph Backstein called (in the cat. "Europa, Europa"), the predecessor of Sots Art.

- West agrees that you are ahead of Western conceptualism? - Even then Indrzhih Halupetsky - Czech critic who wrote for the French, German and other leading western art magazines, said: "You do what the West will just have to deal with. He was an important art critic of the international plan.

But in general it can not be objectively reflect on one simple reason: this is a harbinger nobody knew anything. We had some exhibitions, suppose I had a solo exhibition in Czechoslovakia, in a provincial town. The whole exhibition concept, in fact, work. But who could see her?

- Now that the archives are open and when it all became one big village, it's all lined up? - Which files are open? There are a huge number of well-wishers, struggling promoting good artists, in which they are interested or who they love. If something is being written, say, Boris Groys, who has written about Kabakov and about Russian art, he wrote it in the spirit, which like the Germans. He writes not what actually happened, it is just do not know, he was staff at Kabakov. While Kabakov our friend, one of the most important of our artists, one of the central figures in the movement, about which we speak.

- Recently, at the same West took a lot of exhibitions of the second Russian avant-garde. They had to somehow clarify the picture. - Was an exhibition "From Malevich to Kabakov", where he was, and classic Russian avant-garde, and the second Russian avant-garde together. It made Mark Schoeps at the Museum Ludwig in 1993 in Cologne.

I remember Catherine Tar wrote: how so, why these artists are exhibited, but not the same, so those had to be set. It looked very strange and funny: the Germans are doing the show and take the Russian artists, which want. But the Germans were supposed to organize this hierarchy, and Russia. But Russia will never did.

- How do you prokommentiruesh prices for works by artists of the second Russian avant-garde? - For those who could represent the Russian art, no one has ever stood. For the Germans were Germany, the Israeli artist stood for Israel, for the U.S. - America. Huge money was spent by Americans, to show the world of pop art. We do all our exhibitions, beginning with the show 60-ies and to this day, have always been orphans.

- And how it relates to commercial success? - If a country is not worth for their artists, then they can not be real commercial success. Is a kind of surplus value.

So it was in Russia, yet there were political changes have not appeared wealthy people, who have realized that money alone is not happiness. The same thing happened with the Russian merchants. Tretyakov Riabushinskii, Morozov. Now we have entered into the most remarkable era in which appeared a number of serious Russian collectors. Earned money they are investing not only in the physiological pleasure, knowing that the most important pleasure comes from music, literature and art. First they bought Shishkin, Aivazovsky, today it is buying Yakovlev, buying an entirely different art, which most recently for them did not exist.

- Do you think that prices will increase this in the future? - There is no reason to Americans - such as Jasper Johns, Rauschenberg, say, or Liechtenstein - worth millions of dollars, and Yakovlev, or anyone can be called from this group, worth tens of thousands of dollars ...

- Do you think that the world market, Jasper Johns and Yakovlev should cost the same price? - One is not one, but they should be in the same league.

After all, what is the world market? In America there are lots of artists, it is very important for Americans, which is conceptually absolutely no need of Europe, nor Russia. But if these purely American artists who are not wanted, to sell their some Frenchman or a Jew from Israel to buy for big money immediately. Why? Because he knows that in America there is a market for them, and he can always sell them to the dealer in America.

If the dealers know that somewhere in Zambia value of a black artist, it may be, Western collectors and do not buy, but dealers will buy, because they know: there is a market for it. The same thing will happen with Russia. Several artists will be valued in Russia and therefore will be on the international market, because in Russia there is a large market. This will flow back and forth. The second option - is when a number of Russian artists will be included in the clip of the international collecting.

- Who will be on your forecasts? - Kabakov. He has already entered into this category, we know that his latest sales went into the category of millions. This is natural, expected, and it is strange that it happened so late. And, again, for the simple reason that not enough Russian stood behind him. We are still orphans, not like before, today we are more comfortable in an orphanage, before we hunger starved, ill-clothed, we are now fed decently in our children's home, but we continue to be orphan. I am in a better position, because for me is Israel.

- Who of Russian impression in the West? - Yakovlev, for example.

- And you think that Yakovlev will figure, that is, the international art market? - I do a lot and show it did, and showed it to people, understanding, loving art. Yakovlev always made a huge impression on artists, art historians, dealers western. The exhibition at the Museum Ludwig, they made quite a grand impression, and it is natural, because they so deserve.

- Kabakov, Yakovlev, who else in your opinion will shape the international art market, in the full sense? - Well, let's say, Yankilevsky. All of his work 60-ies - absolutely world-class. Museum of class work.

- And where is your place? After a 71-year you are miles and miles away, and yet your role in the second Russian Avant-garde is not contested. - My conceptualist first things done in the mid 60's, I have already spoken. For example, the first use of a portrait of Stalin in the artistic work. Happened in 1964, this work is also now known everywhere and is published in the Museum Ludwig.

Next - the first destruction of the myth of Lenin. I did this work in 1979-81, respectively, these were the first works of Lenin, which destroyed the mythology. This is a whole series of my works, which is called "Leniniana. Again, it is all located in the Museum Ludwig, and they exhibited it several times.

Above all, there is another aspect. Russian art exists Yiddish Jewish art as an integral part of it. Lissitzky, and many of the Constructivists, Suprematists and others, or a step seen as Russian art.

In the world of art is perceived depending on the theme of the exhibition or as a Russian art, or as a Jewish art. In this regard, I also exist in two ways. Russian art I am a Russian artist, as well as Levitan or Altman or Chagall. In Jewish art I am Jewish artist.

Chagall as it was a measure of Jewish art. But it has long been wrong. Today shagalizm turned into a toxic effect which arose a great number of Jewish kitsch. He was a brilliant man who is the founder of kitsch. Like Salvador Dali. In fact I was the first Jewish artist who makes a new Jewish art, which became part of the Russian, and located in the codes of modern international language.
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Старый 31.07.2008, 17:17 Язык оригинала: Русский       #2
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По умолчанию Blogs Grobman, "Leviathan"

Read blogs Grobman 1960, "Leviathan" - this book and now you can buy:
 
http://www.bolero.ru/books/978586793...евиафан

Does not read in one breath, but the atmosphere of the time very high quality. Barracks, cold, unsettled life, punching orders for illustration. Those who are fond of the sixties - very useful. Another was struck by two things:
1. Judging by diaries people drank almost every day (guests-shmosti, etc.) and time to somehow work and earn.
2. Cell phones did not, and the phones were not at all - but people are nevertheless closely interacted in the guests went, without special arrangements, at random, without cars. And the information is quickly disseminated without the Internet and all all knew about each other. Now is difficult to imagine



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Старый 31.07.2008, 17:33 Язык оригинала: Русский       #3
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people drank almost every day
Holy thing .. But what picture is ..



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Старый 01.08.2008, 12:16 Язык оригинала: Русский       #4
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people drank nearly every day

Holy thing .. But what picture is ..
I do not see a direct connection with the creative potential of vodka. Rather, it interfering. Note that most of the sixties a relatively small creative heritage. Vodka - it is rather a reaction to the atmosphere of the time.



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Старый 01.08.2008, 12:41 Язык оригинала: Русский       #5
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I do not see a direct connection with the creative potential of vodka. Rather, it interfering. Note that most of the sixties a relatively small creative heritage. Vodka - it is rather a reaction to the atmosphere of the time.

Do you really think so? It seems to me that they were very productive (ie, vodka is not very hindered) by Rabin should be more than 2000 works, therefore, have Nemukhin and Lida Masterkova - even more Rukhin wrote a lot and quickly (another thing that many paintings were killed in a fire that cost him his life), Kulakov, mole rats, Sitnikov (!!!), Yakovlev, Zverev (for me it is the artists quite a different order, but it's not the point) - even talk of nothing, from Yakovlev left no less than 10000 works - and this is not counting falshakov
Roginsky written about 3000 paintings.

Some paintings left from my beloved friend Volodya Pyatnitsky, but not that he does not work hard, they just all went off somewhere, and they can not see because they have no one involved - terribly sorry, he is a remarkable artist.

In general, I agree with you, Volodya, does not agree



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Старый 01.08.2008, 12:49 Язык оригинала: Русский       #6
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pretty productive
I will not argue, but it seemed to me that the 3000-5000 work is relatively not much. Picasso only auction turnover (not including art galleries and "real estate" in private collections) is more than 1000 paintings and 3500 graphics pages (not counting the lottery graphs).



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Старый 01.08.2008, 12:52 Язык оригинала: Русский       #7
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Roginskii written about 3000 paintings.
And in Russia is interesting how much is left? Or, basically, he had written in Paris?
If this information is confidential do not answer ..



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Старый 01.08.2008, 12:59 Язык оригинала: Русский       #8
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I will not argue, but it seemed to me that the 3000-5000 work is relatively not much. Picasso only auction turnover (not including art galleries and "real estate" in private collections) is more than 1000 paintings and 3500 graphics pages (not counting the lottery graphs).
No, 3000 - already a lot. And I do not think graphics.
Picasso and Matisse, to a lesser extent in this respect an exception. I do not know the numbers, but it seems to me that the average legacy Impressionists should not exceed 2000.

Actually this is quite an interesting question, I just do not know how to find information quick and painless way to (feel like day and night looking for them on the official website of each artist), will have to invent something.



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Старый 01.08.2008, 13:07 Язык оригинала: Русский       #9
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Сообщение от Vladimir Посмотреть сообщение
I will not argue, but it seemed to me that the 3000-5000 work is relatively not much. Picasso only auction turnover (not including art galleries and "real estate" in private collections) is more than 1000 paintings and 3500 graphics pages (not counting the lottery graphs).
There are two giants, which surpassed the performance of an order of magnitude, if not more - Picasso and Chagall. Artist considered to be very prolific, if he údolie create several thousand works, reached out to 10,000 units, most well-known stop in the thousands.
By the way, about the harm of vodka you too are mistaken. Provide at least one example of the genius artist ascetic. I can not remember.



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Старый 01.08.2008, 13:08 Язык оригинала: Русский       #10
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Сообщение от Eugene Посмотреть сообщение
And in Russia is interesting how much is left? Or, basically, he had written in Paris?
If this information is confidential do not answer ..
Most work 60-bit and 70-ies at the time of our departure, remained in Russia - they were sold or donated.

For the first time after emigration to the 93-th year Roginsky arrived in Moscow for his exhibition "The predecessors of Russian pop-art in CHA (with Chernyshev and Turkish), and has since started going regularly. He lived in Moscow for 2-3 months (in studio Sasha Yulikova) and worked as pictures, written in Moscow, in Paris is not carried away. So that in Russia there is a lot of his work 1990-2000.

In fact, from all his periods in Russia poorly represented only 80's, but still they are, for example, "Kitchen" in the State Tretyakov Gallery, one work in the collection Bondarenko, several works have Ershov.



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