Abstract forever

[Pavel]

You yourself know that you want to say?
Especially that convoluted sentence in the first post.
At what form of Giotto?
Delusions of some kind.
For your compilations is the right material, but the abstraction is an art, rather than compiling for sale, not a commercial business.
It's more like a diagnosis.

[fabosch]

DSF, thanks, although I never got all the pictures, but your message is clear. Well, this scheme also has the right to exist, and it has its reasons. I'm not tired of repeating only one. Real art, of course, does not fit into the scheme. Excuse me, I have to say truisms (I still do not Art-lover). That is a right to exist and the inverse scheme, and for her, too, there are pictures, for example, Roger Bise (Biser), Hans Hartung, Cy Twombly, etc. Where here sunesh, say, Soulages. There's no color, no shape - solid fakturv.
Well, what's to interpret. Importantly, as we know, to win the friendship
Including between abstractionist
Shl. I hope you do not come to mind to answer Pavel'u in his own way. I'm sure he's no harm meant

[GalARTA]

Сообщение от fabosch

Well, what's to interpret. Importantly, as we know, to win the friendship
Including between abstractionist

Dear Colleague, I am very impressed by your manner of dialogue. In any case, thanks to this thread completely different views were illustrated by their excellent work. Thank you.

[Peter]

DSF, thanks for the interesting excursions! Applying your "slide rule" is quite possible to determine the type of product on tsvetoforme.No such "lines" need a few more to measurement had a range tochnym.Naprimer deformation shape until the complete its expansion (impressionism rejected the local color and encroached on the holy syatyh painting-on form), and negation, and thus you can get close to pure abstraction, but even then we still stalknemsya with the only form on which you can not get away with a form-canvas the written product.

Added after 32 minutes
Abstract component has always been in any work of art as a product of the activity of consciousness hudozhnika.Interesno trace the small difference is the formal side of painting to what we now mean by clean, or "unconsciously" abstraction, although I personally support the idea that the "unconscious" all- being done deliberately.

[GalARTA]

Сообщение от Peter

It is interesting to trace the small difference is the formal side of painting to what we now mean by clean, or" unconsciously "abstraction, although I personally support the idea that the" unconscious "after all is being done deliberately.

I also think that everything created by man - can not be separated from his consciousness and motivation. If the author claims that he - only a "guide" to his unconscious, can we talk about the subject of fine art? Once historically, that the art - is the result of human activity created in the period of inspiration, insight, .. but still conscious result.

[DSF]

Сообщение от fabosch

This art, of course, does not fit into the scheme.

fabosch, it generally is not the scheme, but an attempt to define the space of painting and place it in the abstract, based on two fundamental components - the shape and color. I agree with Peter nd that "such" lines "need a few more to measurement was more accurate." This can be done, but I'm afraid that nobody wants. In Soulages, Hartung, Twombly not unusual see abstraction. Black and white are the same color as any other. A thin line is not fundamentally different from the brush stroke.

Сообщение от Peter

... if we still stalknemsya with the only form on which you can not get away-with a form of canvas on which the written product.

Absolutely right, this is the edge, beyond which only the empty frame, porcelain sunflower seeds and sheep in formaldehyde. But this is not the painting, and "contemporary art".

Сообщение от Peter

I personally support the idea that the "unconscious" after all is being done deliberately.

Without a doubt. Good art, whether it is abstract or figurative, created quite deliberately. But the "unconscious" art exists, and even a very good sale, remember the "great artist" Putin.

[fabosch]

Сообщение от DSF

fabosch, it generally is not the scheme, but an attempt to define the space of painting and place it in the abstract, based on two fundamental components - the shape and color. I agree with Peter nd that "such" lines "need a few more to measurement was more accurate." This can be done, but I'm afraid that nobody wants. In Soulages, Hartung, Twombly anything unusual do not see an abstraction. Black and white are the same color as any other. A thin line is not fundamentally different from the brush stroke.

Hartung and Twombly, I gave an example of how the samples asbtraktsii lying not on a pole in color and shape on the pole against your sformulirovnnoy trends. As for the black and white, then here it is not what is the color, but in the enjoyment of painting.
It seems to me that you are their statements hold some thesis, which I still can not agree

I will try to formulate it as I understand it (once again say, that is what I think should be from your words):
the first one I cited figures - a pole shape, and the second - a pole colors.
I understand you correctly?

[Art-lover]

fabosh, of your kind comments (which of the songs in the garden - in garden) conclude that it was time to return to our ingardenam. Sweeps. Next Arrow ingardenom will Arnheim.

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Сообщение от fabosch; 1531561"

the links names to the fate of the world, of course, it is so. But at the smaller things (not the fate of the world) does not always work. But wait a historical inevitability will make his case, life is not always enough.

Any person eh an active subject of history, such resignation? "And it is in any case, the reinterpretation of terms can refresh our perception of archives and" remakes "of art has in this incarnation. In view of the effect of "reasonable eye: you do not know, do not you see, and vice versa.
Because we're busy, and the erection of any schemes: in order of their upbringing, "the Judgement of Taste." The main thing in this fascinating lessons to keep in mind "truism"

Сообщение от fabosch; 1532411"

real art, of course, does not fit into the scheme.

- time to burn these support structures.

Сообщение от fabosch

Above all, as you know, to win the friendship
Including between abstractionist

In the experience of discussions in the forum, when a draw, then hit a foul shot ... but the judges consistently pass the soap. That's the art requires sacrifice.

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Ladies and gentlemen, in addition to the shape and color, there are dynamics, expression, the internal stresses. Draw another scale on the slide rule. )
Word Rudolf Arnheim, the famous American aesthetics and the psychology of art. Below - the final part of his work "Art and Visual Perception" (1954) concerning the abstract and its prospects.
The fact of publication, as they say, does not mean agreement with the position of the author.
Color and selection - on my conscience.

If art meant only play things in nature and nothing else, it could hardly understand the honorary role, which it is given at any stage of development of society. High score of art is determined by the fact that it helps people understand the world and himself, and shows him that he understood and believed that true. Everything in this world is unique, an individual can not be two identical things.

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However, all is comprehended by human reason, and apprehended only because every thing is made up of moments, are not unique to a particular object, and are common to many or even all things. In science, general knowledge arises when all existing phenomena are reduced to a single law. This is also true for art. Mature artwork can be subordinate to all parts of the rule of law structure. But this does not happen distortion of existing things through monotonous expression. On the contrary, creating an opportunity to compare them, we thereby reveal their differences. Marriage, once said: "If you put the lemon next to the orange, then they cease to be a lemon and orange, but they are fruits. This law is followed and mathematics. So do we. " Marriage has forgotten that the strength of such a correlation - in its duality. This correlation indicates the similarity of things in nature and thus reveal their identity. Portraying all the objects in a common "style", the artist creates a whole in which it is clear and well defined place and function of each.
Each element of the work of art is essential in revealing a common theme that portrays the nature of the world. In this sense, we find the symbolism, even in those works that seem at first glance a fairly neutral image objects. We need only glance at a simple outline of the two still-lifes, schematically depicted in the images below to see two different approaches to reality. The painting by Cezanne (Fig. 1) dominated by a stable structure of verticals and horizontals in the background of the table and the axes of bottles and glasses. This structural framework so dominates the picture, even subordinates fold towels. A simple procedure is passed the vertical symmetry of each bottle and glass. Even inorganic matter - in the towering outline, emphasizing the roundness and softness of the items - feel abundance. Compare this image of a prosperous peace with the catastrophic mess in the work of Picasso (Fig. 2). Stability in this picture there is only partly true. Does not feel any horizontal or vertical orientation. The room is in an inclined position. Angles table, which is inverted, or tilted hidden or distorted. None of the legs of the table is not shown in parallel to each other. Bottle in danger of capsize: lolling on the parts of the body of a bird, that and look, fall off the table. Outlines of objects hard, sharp, lifeless body image even when the birds.
Since the main perceptual model contains the theme works, we should not be surprising that the art continues to exist even if it does not depict natural objects.

"Abstract" art in its own carry out the functions inherent in art as a whole. It is not better than realistic art, which also does not hide and reveal the semantic structure of the forces. But the "abstract" art, and no worse than the fine in the sense that it also expresses a certain identity. Abstract art - is not "pure form", because even simple partial line is visually perceived value and therefore symbolic. It does not offer to our attention intellectual abstraction, because there is nothing more concrete than the color, shape and movement. "Abstract" art is not limited to man's inner life or unconscious, because for the arts division at the outer and inner world, the conscious and the unconscious is artificial. Human consciousness and the brain receives, shape and interpret the image of the external world with its conscious and unconscious forces, and the unconscious, without reflection of sensible things could never get into our life experience. There is no way a single image without regard to the other. However, the nature of internal and external world can be reduced to the play of forces. And this kind of "musical" approach was used by artists, which are erroneously called abstract.

We do not know what the future will look like art. But we know that the "abstract" is not the culmination of art. Abstract art style will never be.

There is only one valid way of perceiving the world - a kind of sacred mountains, which from different points of view represented in different ways, but at the same time always remains the same .
.....
Impressive-is the crown of all perceptual categories, each of which contributes to the appearance of expression by visually perceived stress. In his study, and we celebrated. We started our investigation with the statement that any visual model is dynamic. This is the most elementary property actually turns out to be the most significant attribute of the artwork, as if the sculpture or painting is not expressed to the dynamics of stress, they could not reliably reflect our lives. Whereas only a limited range of vision, we can say that the expression is based on only one strain. She points to the universality of the forces, acquired as a result of life experiences in the perception of concrete images: tension and compression, consistency and inconsistency, the rise and fall, the approach and removal. When these dynamic forces are interpreted by us as symbols, forming a human destiny, then the expression suggests an even deeper significance.

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[Маруся]

Сообщение от tandem

criteria for assessment of! The concept of the same "abstract" is opposed to a specific

The notion of abstract art in opposition to no "concrete" (this is the life), and the lack of plot, ie abstract art=painting plotless and pointless.

Let me give an example which has already arisen in this subject (as in some others): that the "Black Square" by Malevich was preceded by a filled black ink sheet Alphonse Allais. One thing: A. Allais called his work: "Negroes fighting in a cave at night" or something like that - and the very name has created a picture story. So - it ceased to be an abstraction

All other laws: the composition, colors are not only preserved, but even worse due to the absence of the plot. What else to influence the viewer?

The question is, in fact, is whether a person is able to perceive the abstract painting, like music (an excellent comparison, by the way), not an opera or a ballet with the famous libretto, and the symphony, sonata, with its compositional structure, his combination of textural and decorative qualities of sound.

Abstract painting is actually very similar to the music: in it one sees what he wants to see how the music - hears what he wants to hear.

Oh really, Art-lover, has released the bar of the woodwork .

[Peter]

Maroussia, but the name often brings to an abstract work of a plot, directing the viewer to a specific ruslo.Eto found in music. "Sabre Dance," "Flight of the Bumblebee"-what might think listening to this
music, if not in name.