Why different prices for examination?

[Glasha]

Another question on the experts: why so different prices for examination? (because there are a number of experts), and is there enough inspection experts and specialists to confirm (there are also cases where obvious!), or is required, plus technology-X-ray diffraction study?
And if the latter is not necessary, then the final price will be less expertise? Do I understand?

[qwerty]

Gala, the price of expertise vary for several reasons. First, of where you are doing examination: the cost of examination by an expert familiar lower than in organizations such as the Grabar Institute or the Russian Museum. This is understandable: the familiar plumber to fix your tap for less money than a company specializing in plumbing services. Secondly, from what you give for examination: the examination of small watercolors, of course, is less examination meter of oil, and examination of a little-known artist is the artist's less expensive. The latter is not very logical, but it is so. Third, how simple examination: if you bring the thing published, say, the catalog of the artist and the expert is to determine only that it was the same thing, not the copy is, of course, much easier than attributirovat unknown work of a particular artist. Fourthly, on the kind of expertise you order - the technological or art history. It is believed that technological expertise is more expensive because it requires a special sophisticated equipment and trained to work on it specialists. Actually, believe me, today there is no hundred percent methods for determining the time of job. That is, with the help of this equipment can be determined only relatively recently created things, and even then not always. I have seen many examples where similar organizations, such as shirokorazreklamirovanny Artkonsalting, were mistaken as to one or the other side: the real work of, say, the thirties of the twentieth century attributirovali post-war period, and, conversely, fakes, made in the eighties, attributirovali Twenty years of the last century.
In fact, a specialist in fifty percent of cases rather than five minutes to figure out the real thing or not. So - my advice to owning a good consultant. This will save you a lot of time and money in comparison with an independent search for truth.

[Glasha]

qwerty,
Thanks again for a full response.
Of course, it would be great to have a familiarity with the expert ...
- A good consultant (hopefully, their number is greater than a list of Confederation) is a good gallerist, or again an expert?
- And if there is a list of "good advisers"?

(But again, in my opinion, the only personal contact and intuition, because looking at the list of galleries of my friends agrees with the gallery "Albion" (objectively and professionally) and in the same list (not write who, what), which left a very negative impression)

- And how difficult to attribute a little work of a great artist, if you say it never was fixed? And if this is possible at all (at the positive artistic and other examinations, or it will still be an indicator of risk-yellow? But there is such a girl to pose, the artist made a small masterpiece, and immediately gave her, and lay this shedevrik nowhere zasvechivayas multi - many years?

[qwerty]

Gala, a good adviser - is, of course, a good gallerist, because, first, as I wrote, there are no experts, equally well versed in all the artists and gallery owner, knows all the experts and therefore knows what the experts to show a specific job. Moreover, secondly, a gallery owner, in contrast to experts, in keeping abreast of current market prices for any artist, and he will not allow you to buy your favorite to work with a large overpayment.
On the second question to answer simply complicated. Nevertheless, I will say that in most cases, the work of a great artist attributirovat possible for two or three weeks, in complex cases a month and a half. Great artist is different from the "secondary" just because he has a kind, different, style of writing.

[ACG]

qwerty,
Presents you beautiful, but let me argue in essence. Hurt the eyes two or three of your categorical statements that can speak any language of negligence or lack of understanding about the essence of the issue. "Today there is no hundred percent methods for determining the time of job." In fact, there is a whole arsenal of professional methods for determining the time of job. Just each method has its accuracy /inaccuracy. The professionalism of an expert technology is a skilful choice of the complex suitable methods to reduce the bugs /errors to an acceptable level.

Failure to understand this, perhaps, explains why both your assertion: "I have seen many examples where similar organizations, such as shirokorazreklamirovanny Artkonsalting, were mistaken as to one or the other side: the real work of, say, the thirties of the twentieth century postwar attributirovali and, conversely, fakes, made in the eighties, attributirovali twenty years of the last century.
About the other "similar organization" do not know, but I know that Art Consulting for 60 years, as you assert, is not mistaken. If you do not exaggerate "just to be witty, call work and give us details of departure so that we can raise the archives and together with you to ensure the veracity of your statement.

"Specialist in fifty percent of cases rather than five minutes to figure out the real thing or not." Although this assertion is difficult to argue, but it is too trivial: in reality, the problem of determining the authenticity of things is often just to make sure to identify - with the "expert" whether we are dealing with and what kind of case in question - when he "understood" right or wrong ...
Suffice it to recall the situation with perelitsovkami, which directly affected many distinguished experts. Only technological expertise allowed us to determine that the picture perelitsovana.

[qwerty]

Сообщение от ACG

presents you beautiful, but let me argue in essence. Hurt the eyes two or three of your categorical statements that can speak any language of negligence or lack of understanding about the essence of the issue. "Today there is no hundred percent methods for determining the time of job." In fact, there is a whole arsenal of professional methods for determining the time of job. Just each method has its accuracy /inaccuracy. The professionalism of an expert technology is a skilful choice of the complex suitable methods to reduce errors /error

You do not grasp its meaning, written by me. Push: I wrote exactly the same as you: every technological method has a precision of \ error, ie any method is not a hundred percent, and the "professional expert technician" - this is the human factor, that any study should take into account as multiplying the probability of error.

Сообщение от ACG

failure to understand this, perhaps, explains why both your assertion:" I met a lot of examples where such organizations, for example, shirokorazreklamirovanny Artkonsalting, were mistaken as to one or the other side: the real work say, the thirties of the twentieth century attributirovali postwar period, and, conversely, fakes, made in the eighties, attributirovali twenty years of the last century.
About the other "similar organization" do not know, but I know that Art Consulting for 60 years, as you assert, is not mistaken. If you do not exaggerate "just to be witty, call work and give us details of departure so that we can raise the archives and together with you to ensure the veracity of your statement.

I understand that, as a member of Artkonsaltinga, you have to try to defend their honor, but you are doing is in vain, as all professional participants of the art market and collectors absolutely all examination are initially with skepticism. Sometimes it helps. A couple of years ago I bought for 15 cents oil Yavlensky. The price was so, because the seller thought he had at the hands of imitation Yavlensky. The reason this is the examination performed by your Artkonsaltingom (contract number 464 of 30 June 2005), resulting in the conclusion, I quote: "The totality of identified materials used in the film, used in painting from the second half of the twentieth century." As I have previously encountered with your mistakes and felt a little versed in Jawlensky, I sent the work to the experts of the Fund Yavlensky (Alexej von Jawlensky-Archiv SA), Locarno - an organization that is recognized worldwide and the only neobsuzhdaemym Expert on Jawlensky. Soon, I was told that this work is known to specialists, moreover, it has been included in the catalog-reasonable (№ 1997, str.260), released many years ago, and technological expertise has confirmed that this is not a copy and original, with what they told me and congratulated.
I have some other examples, the confirmed facts, but more on this subject, I do not want to spread - being sorry.

Сообщение от ACG

"specialist in fifty percent of cases rather than five minutes to figure out the real thing or not." Although this assertion is difficult to argue, but it is too trivial: in reality, the problem of determining the authenticity of things is often just to make sure to identify - with the "expert" whether we are dealing with and what kind of case in question - when he "understood" right or wrong ...
Suffice it to recall the situation with perelitsovkami, which directly affected many distinguished experts. Only technological expertise allowed us to determine that the picture perelitsovana

And here you are, it seems, are not in the subject. The situation with perelitsovkami just were possible because, under our Kiselev and Shishkin, to adjust the work of Western artists, performed at the same time , so they work safely carried on the technological expertise, including you knowing that you did not catch the essence.

[Сергей Александрович]

As I have previously encountered with your mistakes and felt a little versed in Jawlensky, I sent the work to the experts of the Fund Yavlensky (Alexej von Jawlensky-Archiv SA), Locarno - an organization that is recognized worldwide and the only neobsuzhdaemym Expert by Jawlensky. Soon, I was told that this work is known to specialists, moreover, it has been included in the catalog-reasonable (№ 1997, str.260), released many years ago, and technological expertise has confirmed that this is not a copy and original, with what they told me and congratulated.

ACG

But this is interesting. ACG - you should always say something.

[ACG]

qwerty,
A little wordy, forgive ... )

(You do not grasp its meaning, written by me. Push: I wrote exactly the same as you: every technological method has a precision of \ error, ie, any method is not a hundred percent, and the "professional expert technology" - this is human factor, which in any study should take into account both multiplying the probability of error.)

I agree with you, really methods are not hundred per cent, but agree that there need to separately consider the history of art and technical-technological analysis. Art criticism is quite subjective, and the human factor is crucial. Can years pereatributirovat things. The technology is quite objective. First of all, because if a substance was synthesized in 50 years of 20 century and put into production with 60 years (that is documented not only in scientific papers and catalogs but also in the archives of the plant manufacturer), it can not be present in the product 30-40s. The problem is to define it properly and then comes to the rescue equipment and an expert on it working. From the expert requires a few things - the right to choose the place of sampling, this sample is properly cleaned and metering, which is not wrong.
Anticipating a possible counter-arguments, the standard is usually 3.
First: you have a restoration (we do restoration map before you start working with the product, and samples were taken in 10-20 places, if necessary to make thin sections). Second: the artist paints brought from abroad (we have data on the majority of paints and binders, ever used by artists and is available in the world). Third: the pigments of old craquelure available, (like in the movies can be rubbed with pigments or take those that have been used since 17 century. You can wear out an artificial work, you can very competently deal signed, but you can not forge a binder, the physico-chemical parameters accurately determined .
At the moment we are working with the Institute of Physical Chemistry finish tested another method, specifying the time and narrows the options dating. This study was made possible, including through the Grabar Institute (they have provided reference materials for the study of missing periods), many thanks to its director Alexei Petrovich Vladimirov. I think that at this moment that we can do in Russia, Europe has never dreamed. By definition of middleware we are ahead of the entire planet. And it is developed and approved methodology. I'm not trying to convince you, or God forbid, something to catch, but I want to explain that we are really serious about this issue.


(And here you are, it seems, are not in the subject. The situation with perelitsovkami just were possible because, under our Kiselev and Shishkin, to adjust the work of Western artists who performed at the same time, so they work safely carried on the technological expertise, including those to you, knowing that you did not catch the essence.)

Regarding the availability of our theme, we can recall it Preobrazhensky, we are faced with the problem perelitsovok for some time before the scandal broke. The first swallow was the work of Shishkin's "Landscape with a stream", which was removed from the well-known auction and which later turned out to be a painting by the Dutch artist Marinus Kukuka. We were lucky to first understand the situation on behalf of Rosokhrankultura. For this work, followed by a few scattered works, the same plan. The work fell out of the total flow, and gradually we feel a general and assigned them to the group. I will not go into details, but should allow the group parameters that can be determined only by technical and technological analysis in the majority of them had a similar composition of materials, they were all "restored" and the signatures were "поновлены" less than 10 years ago. Not to mention that in some "restoration" of toning, to put it mildly, were suspicious of (unfounded), and sometimes it is an old signature. Pictures Preobrazhenskaya, "came to us in working order, and before you found them at auctions Vladimir Alexandrovich, they have already caught our technology is too crude to facelift. The scandal came much later, after a few months, we received them prosecutors. Naturally, some things though doubtful, but not determined by technology, because the restored painting, and later inflicted a signature - it is normal practice, occurring in 95%of cases. (From my point of view, the author's signature can only be inflicted by the author on raw colorful layer is found from the force in 3-4x%of cases). But the most recent signature should cause suspicion among art historians, and just this is our task - to warn them. Not to mention that the accomplice always doing work on the mistakes, and that is why we noted in the composition of the materials, but do not give the detailed study.

Sergey,
Be sure to answer this question, but, apparently, only tomorrow. "The hand of a soldier stabbing tired")
Currently, we have raised the archives for the 464 contract.
It would be nice to see technological research of our colleagues who have made a study of the paintings abroad. Specifically, whether the analysis was carried binder.

Denis Lukashin

[Евгений]

Сообщение от qwerty

The situation with perelitsovkami just were possible because, under our Kiselev and Shishkin, to adjust the work of Western artists who performed at the same time, so they work safely carried on the technological expertise, including to you, knowing that you did not catch the essence.

 

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V. Petrov made the expert opinion on Shishkin, based on technological expertise that have made in the laboratory of the Tretyakov Gallery. And at that burned, but at least find the courage to abandon the examination. (The only one of the whole army of experts). T.ch.Vy entitled to 100%

[ACG]

If you're on "Landscape with a stream, it is not his doing. The examination was not his.