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Старый 24.06.2010, 17:23 Язык оригинала: Русский       #11
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Сообщение от NATA NOVA Посмотреть сообщение
But we were brought up on the books of Basil John.
NATA NOVA, and then many were brought up on books, LN Gumilev. If everything is connected, then all of Russia was just lucky. But you think about why our fate in the modern and contemporary times - overtaking modernization. Imagine a tribute to - "for a protein with smoke" on the "sword with smoke", etc. That's the number of "white" and "swords" in the year from each locality. Ie economics does not work on their people, to its development. And technology is evolving, not upgraded, because working on the nomads - another civilization. And if the development goes (and it is), then with great effort, and it is incumbent upon all segments of the population. Princes as politicians also had to spin.
     Look now objectively on Greece, Albania, Bulgaria, the Ottoman Balkans at all. And Romania! That's how the results look yoke. They just took less time than we have.




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Старый 25.06.2010, 11:09 Язык оригинала: Русский       #12
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Question (historical) "yoke" is very big and interesting. I read a lot on this subject (the content of literature is not a lot and very topical question of authenticity), and yet I have the impression that there is no oppression there was, it was a single state (in understanding), which was good for everyone. Why else would so actively our princes, instead of fighting the invaders actively involved in feuds tataromongolov as they are in our (the big question is whether Mongols).
  For example little known fact: Alexander Nevsky was twinned Sartak, son of Batu Batu, respectively, and was named for the father of Nevsky. Soviet history of this fact silent. In general, unfortunately, our history is still heavily politicized, hence the difficulty in the study.



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Старый 25.06.2010, 11:39 Язык оригинала: Русский       #13
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Konstantin, vice versa. In our history, and it was not enough as the policy content. Just this side very well represented at the Gumilev. Ie history not as "productive forces" and "productive relations" and not as a "great historic mission." And like real life, as a response to the challenges - not only economic but also political. These examples you just about politics - when pripret, even fraternize with the devil, and sit at the negotiating table. In my opinion, it was a "soft" colonialism. In the sense that the cost, of course, pumped out, the damage inflicted demographic, but politically left as a kind of vassalage.



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Allena (25.06.2010)
Старый 25.06.2010, 12:41 Язык оригинала: Русский       #14
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Now I do not claim to truth, but ...
Think about if everything was possible and necessary.
Цитата:
The article by Sergei Baymuhametova "And whether the yoke?" Is an example:
 
"The historian Gumilev without thinking leads a list of Russian surnames Tartar origin .... Aksakov Alyabjev, Apraksin, Arakcheyev, Arseniev, Akhmatov, Babichev, Balashov, Baranov, Basmanov, Baturin, Beketov, Berdyaev, Bibikov, Bilbasov, Bichurin, Boborykin, Bulgakov, Bunin, Burtsev Buturlin Bukharin, Veliaminov, Gogol, Godunov, Gorchakov, Gorshkov, Derzhavin Yepanchin Eromolaev, Izmailov, Cantemir, Karamazov, Karamzin, Kireyevsky, Korsakov, Kochubey, Kropotkin, Kurakin, Kurbatov, Kutuzov, Miliukov Michurin, Rachmaninov, Saltykov, Stroganov, Suvorov, Tagantsev, Talyzin, Taneyev, Tatishchev, Timashev, Timiryazev and Tretyakov, Turgenev, Turchaninov, Tiutchev, Uvarov, Urusov, Ushakov, hamsters, Chaadayev Shakhovskoi, Sheremetev, Shishkov, Yusupov ... It is clear that Gumilev calls names known that on hearing. Generally, dictionary of Russian names of Turkic origin, compiled by the philologist and historian Nikolai Alexandrovich Baskakov - is a big volume. Anyone who reviews it from cover to cover, inevitably thoughtful. From his constant confrontation oppressor and oppressed, the conquerors and conquered, in a word, from the yoke - this does not happen ... »
Sigismund Herberstein, who visited twice in Muscovy in the early 16 th century, resulting in an engraving look Vasily III.
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Старый 25.06.2010, 13:27 Язык оригинала: Русский       #15
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Сообщение от Konstantin Посмотреть сообщение
Why else would so actively our princes, instead of fighting the invaders actively involved in feuds tataromongolov as they are in our (the big question is whether the Mongols).
For example little known fact: Alexander Nevsky was twinned Sartak, son of Batu Batu, respectively, and was named for the father of Nevsky.
I think it was the only way to survive. For hundreds of years was stalled any development, for waking up in the morning, every man did not know whether he will survive till the evening. What kind of development is possible in such an atmosphere of permanent fear of the animal - not just a fear of some possible problems, and specific fear for their lives?

In addition, the horde went not only material resources but also a lot of people (strong, young) got into slavery, so the fight was not the objective possibilities. Cooperation with the Horde was initially the only way to save lives, but much later - with the weakening of the Horde in the feud - way to achieve some personal goals.

And bro, and married - and what could I do? By the way, one must bear in mind that in the Middle Ages the psychology of people very different from our "Assimilation was pretty fast, and even names that are now considered native Russian actually have eastern roots.

There are examples in history when Russian princes refused to bow to idols, - the result of one: Take, for example, the story of Prince Mikhail of Chernigov and his nobleman Theodore. And because it is at this time, with the advent of St. Sergius Radonezhsky appear in Russia coenobitic monasteries, which approved the provisions of quietism - "smart doing", ie hotspots, so to speak, moral survival and strengthening largely demoralized people, which did not exist before.

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Сообщение от Konstantin Посмотреть сообщение
From the permanent confrontation oppressed and the oppressed, the conquerors and the conquered, in a word, from the yoke - this does not happen ...
This is a controversial assertion, which, in my opinion, does not consider single features discussion period - or time (centuries!), Nor the objective state of Russia and the Horde, nor the psychology of medieval man.




Последний раз редактировалось Allena; 25.06.2010 в 13:30. Причина: Добавлено сообщение
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Старый 25.06.2010, 13:55 Язык оригинала: Русский       #16
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Сообщение от Allena Посмотреть сообщение
In addition, the horde went not only material resources but also a lot of people (strong, young) got into slavery
"In the horde went" is where? In the bare steppe, in the nomad tents? Nomads in yurts? And that "many people" also lived in a yurt? Since the nomads in the steppes of herds of horses chasing vpoiskah fresh herbs?



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Старый 25.06.2010, 14:00 Язык оригинала: Русский       #17
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Сообщение от Konstantin Посмотреть сообщение
I just do not claim to truth, but ...
Think about if everything was possible and necessary.
Konstantin, was a natural process of assimilation - yet two hundred years of cohabitation. Do not forget that the Slavs first came to the land of the Finno-Ugric peoples, the current central part of Russia and successfully assimilate them (or replaced). Finnish words into our vocabulary and toponymy, too much. Then we come to the Mongols - and this too has left a strong imprint on our culture and speech. This reality, they could only accept. In Ukraine, but no one denied the love of fat with the disappearance of the Tatar raids. caught on ...
Over a century of living together with other peoples the Russian language and culture do much to absorb, a cosmopolitan version of the Slavs turned. Good luck!

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Цитата:
Сообщение от Konstantin Посмотреть сообщение
  For example little known fact: Alexander Nevsky was twinned Sartak, son of Batu Batu, respectively, and was named for the father of Nevsky. Soviet history of this fact silent. In general, unfortunately, our history is still heavily politicized, and hence the complexity of the study.
And Ivan the Terrible for her mother, Elena Glinskaya - a descendant of Mamaia.




Последний раз редактировалось Мимопроходил; 25.06.2010 в 14:04. Причина: Добавлено сообщение
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Старый 25.06.2010, 14:06 Язык оригинала: Русский       #18
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Сообщение от Mimoprohodil Посмотреть сообщение
A Ivan the Terrible for his mother, Helen Glinskaya - a descendant of Mamaia.
Elena Glinskaya the daughter of Prince Davidov from Lithuanian kind Glinskikh and his wife Anna. A genus Glinskikh-Lithuanian princely family, and only expected, some possibly of Tatar origin. Russ at the time was generally bilingual and who are there on who has more influence, the big question. While the entire experience of mankind, affecting more developed and the cultural.



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Старый 25.06.2010, 14:10 Язык оригинала: Русский       #19
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Сообщение от Cyril Syzranskiy Посмотреть сообщение
"In horde went" is where? In the bare steppe, in the nomad tents? Nomads in yurts? And that "many people" also lived in a yurt? Since the nomads in the steppes of herds of horses drove in search of fresh grass?
Why? Horde was well established by the State - with cities, settled population, administrative division, and the capital:
1224-1254 Orda-Bazar
1254-1283 Sarai-Batu
1283-1481 Saray-Berke



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Старый 25.06.2010, 14:15 Язык оригинала: Русский       #20
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Сообщение от Mimoprohodil Посмотреть сообщение
with cities, sedentary population, administrative division and the capital
Yeah, and the capital city and the "settled community"-on paper. There is nothing except the excavation on the possible location of the capital of the Horde in the Astrakhan region.
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Сообщение от Mimoprohodil Посмотреть сообщение
the cities
That I know in the East of the city, Samarkand, Khiva, Khorezm, Urgench ...
Also, and collapsed and died, the kingdom, but something is left.

A Kiev-suffering, for example?



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