Abstract forever

[Peter]

Сообщение от Stanislavski

Total abstraction which annihilates whatever principles of interpretation, which means that all interpretations take on the same ontological status, that is, each of which will be valid and no less important than the interpretation of the artist.

This characteristic figure of the child under the age of five years and one way to tell about the art of abstraction hapless adult buyer.

Posted 48 minutes

Сообщение от Stanislavski

Abstraction (in the extreme, the absolute, the totality of its form) as opposed to other "methods" do not shows, but only and exclusively is deep, unconscious intention of the human person.

However mnee we consider an abstraction in the visual arts (this is not music), but here we see the image, so the criteria we apply the appropriate, but that does not beg that the "stream of unconsciousness" which throws buckets of the artist on canvas (Pollack did it literally). But he makes the harmonization of the chaotic potoka.U artist all the laws of composition, rhythm and cromatics sit deep inside through many years of study, theory and praktiki.Emu ESPECIALLY do not think about it (as some think, but it is not visible) . By issuing another batch of unconsciousness artist immediately, reactive, spontaneous, if you want to convert, leads her to finish and harmonious synthesis, as a result of that we can confidently say that we face is abstract paintings, and not something else ... .

[iside]

Сообщение от Peter

Yes, there are criteria for evaluation of abstract painting and they are not many otltchayutsya on the criteria of realistic painting. If a child draws abracadabra, it is her, and will remain, and no one would never call it "creation" abstract art. A professional artist, even in the abstract will solve the problem really is quite realistic if we are talking about a picture. Firstly it will be the layout, that is the location on the sheet.

I have quoted Peter a, but the issue would like to ask all participants.
Ie if indeed there are criteria for evaluation of abstract painting, then everything becomes very simple.
For example, if I, as a man who owns these criteria, which is attached here or a job or even a series of works by one artist, without specifying its name, then I can get a professional opinion, how much good work and whether they were work of genius or a scribble from someone who decided to become an artist?
Because I have a suspicion that the opinions will differ, and even very likely that will not coincide with the opinions of eminent critics.

Why am I all that? I really like to read theoretical arguments about abstraction, but I've said many times to persuade and not by the example of abstract paintings that every man has his opinion, especially when it comes to fresh pictures and new names, but not even very new.

[fabosch]

Сообщение от iside

I have quoted Peter a, but the issue would like to ask all participants.
Ie if indeed there are criteria for evaluation of abstract painting, then everything becomes very simple.

All will be very simple, if you do the very difficult conditions - to teach these criteria. And it's not simply because they do not always and not all are formalized, but also because learning it can serve as a foundation for learning, personal experience, without which formal methods are dead.

Сообщение от iside

For example, if I, as someone who has not mastered these criteria, which is attached here or a job or even a series of works by one artist, without specifying its name, then I can get a professional opinion, how much good work and whether they work of genius or a scribble, from someone who decided to become an artist?
Because I have a suspicion that the opinions will differ, and even very likely that will not coincide with the opinions of eminent critics.

Even if you collect a sufficient number of "eminent critics," and then vypoluchite discordance, but still, I think a trend is noticeable. And at the forum, you think all ravnoimenity and all are equally owned by the criteria? Forums - it's quite a motley community, although, of course, higher level than simple random sampling.

Сообщение от iside

Why am I all that? I really like to read theoretical arguments about abstraction, but I've said many times to persuade and not by the example of abstract paintings that every man has his opinion, especially when it comes to fresh pictures and new names, but not even very new.

That's exactly

[iside]

Сообщение от fabosch; 1530471"

Even if you collect a sufficient number of "eminent critics," and then vypoluchite discordance, but still, I think a trend is noticeable.

fabosch, not the fact that the trend will be noticeable. Different critics and specialize in different just because of personal tastes, ie, Of course they know the story of the same, namely to work kontemporarnyh someone reviews only video art, one painting in one or another style, etc. I know this from experience, unfortunately, life and work, this fact does not simplify.

Сообщение от fabosch

forum - it's quite a motley community, although, of course, and higher level than just a random sample

I agree, although this impression tends to be scattered at a closer look at some of the participants. Nevertheless, the conversations that take place here, the depth and quality of the arguments I have never met in an English speaking area, which has long been all write only for money.

Gentlemen, we have finally left? Study, study and study again, but in the end the art before us or not, everyone decides for himself. How to say LCR: is not art, because I said so or is a genius because I said so , sorry for the fact that do not have the exact phrase.

[kr555]

Сообщение от iside

For example, if I, as someone who has not mastered these criteria, which is attached here or a job or even a series of works by one artist, without specifying its name, then I can get a professional opinion, how good the work is Do they work of genius or a scribble, from someone who decided to become an artist?
Because I have a suspicion that the opinions will differ, and even very likely that will not coincide with the opinions of eminent critics.

Well, and why it causes such a doubt?
Here for example mesh work, and absolutely can not imagine that someone could call it "normal and oil, from someone who decided to become an artist." Even my venerable years and is very conservative father, who admits only to the Wanderers and the Jack of Diamonds is considered normal and dry, recognizes that this is a very high level of painting, though she does not like him at all.

[DSF]

Сообщение от fabosch

From this thesis, I somehow implicitly read in what you think is the abstraction of being on pole, in color and realistic painting - on the pole shape. This is so?

So.

Сообщение от fabosch

According to Bernson, Florentine School vsegdv tended to develop problems drawing, perspective, composition at the expense of development ... Kloristicheskie coloristic delights were the prerogative of the Venetian school.

Yes, you are right in art history is a point of view. It is not entirely true, in my view pure practice. Giotto - pure colorist, Taddeo Gaddi - surprisingly harmonious, and Masaccio, Botticelli, Lippi, Fra Angelico ... I still can not forget those of harmony, where everything is subordinated to bloom. Yes, they worked on a drawing, perspective, composition. But all of this - not at the expense of color, and it is amazing! How they managed to combine everything into a coherent whole? It is very difficult. Venetian school more inclined to form, whatever the historians wrote.

Сообщение от fabosch

Probably too extreme point of priority of color should be called, for example, Klein, Rothko or his famous blue.

Let me explain. Black square - is one tsvetoforma. One simple shape - square, and one color - black (conventionally black, it is rather dark gray). Just as, for example, the red dot - it will also be a simple tsvetoforma. Rothko, still, uses several tsvetoform on canvas. Therefore, his work, I can not say very much at the point, although very close to it. But Klein - yes, I agree.

About abstract art written many texts. This is due to the fact that people still want to understand and realize what they are seeing. But what can you write about a certain combination of color spots? Only one - the mystic, the unconscious, the deep intention, etc. Initially, the artists are not very pleasant, but he threw good "bone", they were told - you're visionaries, mediums, the researchers of the new realities, innovators and geniuses. And the artists included in this game. Since then, as Renoir said: ".. Artists see themselves as exceptional beings, imagine that, putting the blue paint instead of black, they change the world. " Time will pass, will come new generation of artists, will replace the blue paint in black and once again "turn the world."

Сообщение от iside

... I can get a professional opinion, how much good work and whether they were work of genius or a scribble, from someone who decided to become an artist?

Thank you for your kind words, dear iside! "I write here often, because I have really very little free time.
Responding to your question is - can not. Painting, based on a harmony of color, very difficult, almost impossible to evaluate the monitor, we can not see the "quality" of the original color and its scale. You need to look original. On the internet you can more or less to evaluate only the form of: proportions, angles, volumes, etc. All this is a totally objective criteria. With color - more difficult.

[Art-lover]

Сообщение от fabosch

Quote:
Message from Art-lover
Truth is, perhaps, in the middle: in the abstract surrealism. This is an interesting direction after a short way - in the early 1940's - has been supplanted by abstract expressionism. In my opinion, because for American artists could not pull it (a pity. Somehow I'll return to this issue).
But with this place can be more detail - is anyone out there, "the helper"?

One passing on business already named -

Сообщение от Seriy

Slides

He sewed verhovodstvo in shtatovskih gang, while others gang - Hans Hoffman and Adolph Gottlieb. But the nose cannon of all the abstract expressionists.

The very first gang amassed in Europe long before the Americans. She was armed with assault rifles, so they nicknamed avtomatistami. "Historical background is as follows: number of artists focused on the free expression of feelings and inspired by the idea of automatism - technology transfer images to the subconscious mind - believed that subliminal images can be abstract. This hindering effect manifested analytical mind. The only way to bring pictures of the subconscious to life avtomatisty (tommy)) seen in an abstract painting. The most important figures of European abstract surrealism called Joan Miro ("the most beautiful feather in his hat surrealism") and Andre Masson. By the same company abut Max Ernst, Yves Tanguy, Roberto Matta .. All of them were not purists, and injected into their abstract biomorphic forms.

Since amerikatsam had to assert their priorities, subject to import terminology emergency replacement of a new masking surreal ears. So it has been finished with an abstract surrealism and began a procession of abstract expressionism.
In my opinion, the loss in this case were not merely terminological. Together with the words "abstract surrealism (or perhaps better," surreal abstraction ") somehow faded prompted them to special synergy of consciousness and unconscious intuitions in the process of working on the painting. But here starts my reading of the term, and not undisputed (ie a relative whose I am still arguing with myself.)))

[fabosch]

Сообщение от Art-lover

One passing on the case already named -
He sewed verhovodstvo in shtatovskih gang, while others gang - Hans Hoffman and Adolph Gottlieb. But the nose cannon of all the abstract expressionists.

The very first gang amassed in Europe long before the Americans. She was armed with assault rifles, so they nicknamed avtomatistami. "Historical background is as follows: number of artists focused on the free expression of feelings and inspired by the idea of automatism - technology transfer images to the subconscious mind - believed that subliminal images can be abstract. This hindering effect manifested analytical mind. The only way to bring pictures of the subconscious to life avtomatisty (tommy)) seen in an abstract painting. The most important figures of European abstract surrealism called Joan Miro ("the most beautiful feather in his hat surrealism") and Andre Masson. By the same company abut Max Ernst, Yves Tanguy, Roberto Matta .. All of them were not purists, and injected into their abstract biomorphic forms.

Since amerikatsam had to assert their priorities, subject to import terminology emergency replacement of a new masking surreal ears. So it has been finished with an abstract surrealism and began a procession of abstract expressionism.
In my opinion, the loss in this case were not merely terminological. Together with the words "abstract surrealism (or perhaps better," surreal abstraction ") somehow faded prompted them to special synergy of consciousness and unconscious intuitions in the process of working on the painting. But here starts my reading of the term, and not undisputed (ie a relative whose I am still arguing with myself. )))

I think here we are now all mixed up, as in Oblonsky house (as a friend of mine used to say). Surrealists Miro, Tanguy, and Matta in part just did not use Automatic letter, and went on the road neat, boring, vyrisovyvaniya either flat (world) or psevdoobemnyh (Tango) forms, that is, by way of such crackers as Dali, Delvaux and name them Legion ... (Well, Miro will certainly prettier the add) But Masson, and especially Max Ernst, this youngster is quite a real submachine and so on-then the theory Breton learned well, and even planted it in America, from which then came true Surrealists - I mean Pollock, with the company. Here I agree with you.
But I still think it's just a matter of terminology that already there is lost of the fact that the yacht named "Trouble," God knows, I do not know

[fabosch]

Сообщение от DSF

Message from fabosch
From this thesis, I somehow implicitly read in what you think is the abstraction of being on pole, in color and realistic painting - on the pole shape. Is that so?

So.

May, of course you're right, but I agree with that just can not.
Practically almost blindly take the example of convince me that your thesis is not how a comprehensive, then there are many examples that contradict his
In the first two pictures for me, plays a major role pattern, shape, and secondly the two - color

[тандем]

Сообщение от Peter

Yes, there are criteria for evaluation of abstract painting and they are not many otltchayutsya on the criteria of painting realistic .......

Lead the whole quote makes no sense because evaluation criteria specific! The concept of the same "abstract" is opposed to the concrete, its antagonism in pure form. Farther away from the concrete, the abstract. Endless "nothing" - limit the aspirations of all the fans abstraktsii.No because nothing in nature in its pure form does not exist, we have to accept the presence of specific sounds, shapes and tsveta.Bessoznatelnaya attempt to achieve a clean abstraction of the Creator extremely rare. One is the phenomenon called insanity, others genialnostyu.Te same who are trying to achieve "absolute" knowledge - simulyanty.Ih can be built in rows, squares, circles, but they will remain malingerers-pritvoschikami.Horoshimi or bad. This depends upon the technical skills and the ability of the individual is a sham.