The question of the primacy of the expert
 

Dear forum members, I would appreciate the advice. While not declare the names and appearances, because I want to first understand whether in principle, to do something.

There is a picture. The owner attributed its оччень popular in Russia market, the 19 th century artist, who drew a lot of bruising huts and birch trees, and it actively forged and counterfeited.
Did you give - through the two gallery owners - to evaluate the two leading experts. One firm said that the forgery. Another, which clearly can not say, but a lot of doubt and a positive sign under examination does not deliver.
This would be possible and finish, but then go BUT:

- One of the experts' second plan (but not the "third", namely, quite sane, as I understand, a man who works in the Tretyakov Gallery) believe that the original;

- A big problem: there are no artist's signature, it vykovyrena. According to the owner, at 19, when the fear of confiscation. If this is too fake, logical, perhaps, to forge a signature than to pick;

- Expert, who spoke about the forgery, suggested that a fake 30-ies. However, the picture in the family of 18, when it left "on deposit" to go to Europe together people with different junk. This statement of the owner. I told her I can not believe for many reasons (age 78 years, the origin, its professional, ethical and cultural status, as defined in the process of long acquaintance, etc. As an illustration: As a direct descendant of PA Viazemsky it has a number of attribution and confirmed by examination of handwritten documents PA, but did not want to sell them for any money, although it is in a dire situation.)

- About the painting itself. I feel ignorant, like the work of the implied author still more than now this cartoon, though it is not a masterpiece. Display photos yet would not like not understanding whether it has meaning. There was somewhere barbaric topic about checking through tykanya needle - jabbed (that's such a bastard I am: shy:), no traces. That is, probably more than a hundred years, and it also does not match the version of 30-ies.

Questions:
1. if the leading experts A and B have spoken, whether the word change in the force of circumstances?
2. Does it make sense to apply to other experts (one directly said that if a verdict, he and his brother for the examination will not be), and if so, to what exactly?
3. Can some technical espertiza give enough reliable result, and what it will cost?

As the topic, I think, takskat delicate, you can write and lichku. In lichku can all specify. On the other hand, if the experts say that further discussion is meaningful expose the photo in the subject.

PS Please do not perceive the mention of the plight of the owner in the genre of the recruiting song of beggars in the train. Rather, it is requested to actively take to clarify the issue. Because, if a question of forgery, you need to stop illusions and sell this thing as a fake for the price. But a clear understanding yet.

wrong word
 

As I understand it, this is the main reason for the negative findings. This can be overcome technical expertise? Well, I do not know, there's even written about hand movements ...

do not consider this a problem I had with a truncated Burliuk early signature of America's (cut, scraped, so as to remove from Russia) with provinansom and postcards written by Burliuk - do not cause doubts, but rather the client Pts. liked it - "like FENXKI."
Another Korovin was also with vyrezannooy signature. Another well-known portrait of a noblewoman (exhibited at Sotheby's or Christie's, do not remember) Bogdanov-Belsky, was cut down to cut off the signature, because after the Revolution was dangerous to keep on the wall painting of the author, and a portrait of a beloved grandmother ...

I, honestly, after 1 post thought it was Clover, and if this is the one from the movie, the case is more complicated.

Kirill, I honestly thought that authorship can be reasonably likely to identify and without a signature. Surely there must be pictures of the damaged, just not signed, I do not know, nedosgorevshie: confused:
This is not about the signature, but the style of the hand motor activity (such as motor skills can be identified in smears). About the time of writing. Or without a signature is not worth to say?

E. I am far from painting. Maybe this is a very good picture. I just do not understand them Apr. We, the proletarians, obtuse.

No, I'm talking about the author, and not about the picture. If your author - the same as prredpolagaemy in the topic, it Pts. serious artist, in terms of attribution in particular. In Grabar, even from their rarely take such names. And you Petrova tried?

Begins to suspect that you associate me with that dude: D Do not, for God's sake. Englishwoman fouls. I Agent Conclave 300 and Sirius.

However, it is clear that now need to put the photo to all the conversation went. I did not want to do this for one simple reason - those experts, which are discussed, this may look, but I would not want to deprive them of freedom of maneuver. I would prefer to send photos and information lichku, and those who have something to say can be valuable.

While you are right. Believe no one should be.
I would just note that I did not ask any attribution or appreciate, or anything like that. I want to understand it technically possible to assess the degree of reliability of authorship, and how the conclusion of the expert steering final and authentic.

Have you ever read a post with minimal attention.

sure that the forum is the experts do not "lower" than those who have our picture looked.
Plus a dozen participants had AK hands.
Plus dozens of artists, restorers and art historians whose eyes well, just "diamond".
Show a picture and a pair of fragments in good quality and you'll get advice for free.: D

On the one who initiated the topic to which I gave the link in the first post. Hopefully, not very difficult phrase, see?
Just another turns out that you are raving, sorry, of course: D

Di I do decide himself. Nothing can?

How strange you talk about serious ... vague and not on the topic.
I put the questions. Can answer - thanks. No=what Flooding something?

[color="# 666686"]Added after 2 minutes[/color]
Perhaps you're right. I just can not understand whether it makes sense to show a picture after the leading experts have spoken.

Ignat,
I also came across pictures with cut signatures. In particular Repin, which was then quite successfully attribution. I think in your case, all is not in vain.

Of course, experts say could change. There Petrov once said, and so far said in:) This is a joke, I deeply respect him as an expert. So the initial opinion of experts about your picture yet does not mean anything.
Of course there is! Hope dies last. You can apply in the Russian Museum in St. Petersburg, and in GosNIIR. And the same Peter ...

Maybe still in ArtKonsalting? The forum is their representative under the same nickname. I think it will help, and tell all prices.
And. I think that the expertise now need to give yourself, and not through the gallery owners.

Thank you very much, Sergey.
The only wanted to clarify, why not through the gallery owners? I thought so correctly, they are also interested in selling?

[color="# 666686"]Added after 16 minutes[/color]
Damn. I always thought that more or less speak speech. But do not stop. I even now I do not understand any of your previous posts, nor the meaning of this last phrase - you continue Stebaev? In my opinion, somewhat clumsily to mockery. For nesteba mysteriously. Questions have been something simple.

Opinions are divided ...
Reframe the question: a crucial role in the attribution of plays technical espertiza (if any exist in the appropriate form) or opinions of experts?
And as far as the opinion of leading experts determines the judgments others?

If the attribution tightly paired with the opinion of two or three people, though very competent, but not with objective data, bad business - for market participants, primarily.

If you look closely at the first post, I think, is obvious: I do not want to grind. I want clarity. If the expert rejects the authenticity, there are reasons, though he described them. So no, it was said, in essence: a fake, because fake. And what to think?
As for the plume - yes.
Again, I formulated the questions that might be useful for the profane. Once articulate. Maybe you (or someone else from the experts) do not find it difficult to answer:
- Are there any hardware expertise to enable impact on expert opinion?
- Does the opinion of leading experts, that the validity of the proposal is equal to zero?
- Able to efficiently operate the market (sorry, just been interested in the abstract), in which the validity of a commodity is determined by eye by two=three men, even a very respected?

I do not to you, and to ensure that you and another tovarisch associated me with the author of Topeka, to which I referred ... devil ... OK, let's forget.
You explained and I understood. And thank you, and sorry if that is not so.

Since you have removed their posts, I can not (and do not desire) quoting your cryptic remarks.

On "during the argument" does not tell. Ease lie, removing the posts.
But experts do not tell "kitchen" clients, and speaking - this is so, because I said so "- it is something so very proud, feudal. You now come to me with a legal matter, but I will say: "You do not win a process of ever" - and shut up. Is not it strange, no?

Actually, a funny situation. You have removed their posts, but Flooding continue. That you are cyclical, or what? Spamming and clear, again Flooding ...

In this case - at least that it is not fake 30's, experts say.
A simple question: in addition to the time of creation, can not find anything?

Suitability, but with slightly dilated connotations, sorry, semantic additions. By the way, if the notion of "disability" (the root of a) unfamiliar, you can just look at the dictionary. There are dictionaries of modern Russian language, maybe you heard?

Vain.
Countries to participate in that, what does not understand. (Anticipating your next philological exercise, I will note that if you as=either not minded, and meaning in it can not).

Also thank the three hours' flood. And for that I drew. Teenage days was not involved in such a desultory conversation. Thank you.

Ignat, you just caught the essence of the problem of Russia's art market.

I was once an old antique dealer said: "Do you want to sell now - go for expertise in the Tretyakov Gallery, want to buy - go to Grabar!" :)