Rubens
 

Perhaps among the forum has experts Flemings.
Can you trust the authorship Rubens Kunstauktionhaus Schloss Ahlden?
In the latest catalog right on the cover:

http://schloss-ahlden.de/ebook/155/155eBook/flash.html#

To me, Rubens and three kilometers not standing next to.

There is clearly written "and the workshop", and the price is appropriate.

Rubens
 

You could not explain why the "three kilometers." I am able to trust your opinion, but I would like to know the reason (ies). Better if it is based on the anatomy and geometry shapes.
I do not have a perfect eye to compare, but the sides of the references we found out the following:

Metropolitan Museum of Art (N. York) and Mr. Held, led a team of experts from Britain and the United States wrote that the original is precisely in this museum.

Prof. Hofstede and other experts from Germany, France, Holland, Italy and Sweden, they write that the total of the original of this song is not. They explain that, in addition to nepodpisyvaniya paintings Rubens restricted persons and other elements that could not trust his workshop. Hofstede, in addition to direct visual assessment, refers to the famous 17 th century print Cornelis Blumaerta proves that the print could not be removed from the New York version of the picture and that the museum in Kassel, but only to the one now in Alden.

If you are an expert, would you look at all three versions of "Atalanta and Meleager" (New York, Kassel and Alden) and make a second opinion on the basis of three-way comparison.

Thanks in advance for your opinion ilidopolnenie to the previous.

Gregory

read:

http://forum.artinvestment.ru/showth...6545&highlight =%D0%A0%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%81

Added after 21 minutes
http://schloss-ahlden.de/objekt.php?oid=15522701&om=s
look here through the " magnifying glass " on the part.
- How to draw the face of a trumpeter - as if with a satirical cartoon of the last century .
- Woman's hand : the faces of wild boar and the elbow - just amateur level .
- And indeed, all in all , based on the copy of the amateur .
Rubens was a good " team leader " in its " cooperative " worked best "geeks" on the topics.
If the conversation was over the shop , it was a boar hog and hand would be at hand.
I live an hour away from the auction , this time not even going to see something.


PS
While the work in question , the wife looked over my shoulder.
Says , in as early as the time were silicone breast , miracles ...... :D>

 

In such cases it is necessary to ask the artists ...
It is seen as that of painting there, and Rubens was God in this matter and this would prevent coloring in his studio ...

Rubens
 

Thank you very much for the advice and participation. I am glad that internal disturbances can share with someone.

We are with you as two twins - my views on the schedule pattern exactly coincided with yours.

However, I am more stupid and, therefore, spent about an hour in Alden, then threw the photo Gordon Lidka and Jaffe, and received a written reply that a "good" job shop, but there is a hand of the maestro - picture will not tell.

Discussed all the same, eye-catching details and Alden.

Now do not ask anyone from continuing doubt either side today decided to open an account on your forum.

However, the full conviction and after your answer is no, because all this has passed.

Before I remove bidovaniya, develop please some possible doubt your case (below - the argument from Alden)

1) "Silicone breast", as mentioned by you and others, zalepuhi picture exactly copied, and, no doubt, in the 17th century Cornelis Blumaertom, and this print is authentic, not rare in museums in Europe and the assignment of permissions is the name of the Maestro, t . is Maestro license was issued exactly on the picture, while Blumaert traveled far across Europe to Spain to make a print of the original, not a copy. Historians traditionally consider that Rubens did not allow prints with copies from the developing mass collecting and walking to the originals with prints in hand.

2) All three versions of the song (the Met, Cassel and Alden) have tons of restoration, either because it depicts, or (later) were washed and restored every 50 years (on average). So dark (contour) of the paintings are often lost and executed (drawn) ugly - restorers. Unfortunately there is no "open" photo Aldenskoy version, but take a look, for example, the "stripped" version of that in Meta: http://996166.com/html/painting/2012...231723205.html trumpeter face even more unrealistic, the left eye schematic, fingers curled up so that it is impossible to understand what he is holding the pipe, the left eye Atalanta more rights (should be vice versa), the very face unnaturally distorted and far from Rubens. Right shoulder Meleager climbs from below. All these errors are now painted on Meta restorers, including a shoulder cape, which Lidka wrote that it was originally, but I think he will add it to hide the disability shoulder Meleager, etc.

3) Canvas as not to arouse suspicion, and I - certainly of the 17th century. I've seen enough of them.

4) You can continue to complete otlitsanie, based on visual sensations, but either he was as Rubens nefotografichnym as all the then "nefotoapparaty" or are so lazy trusting masterskoy.My important places can not be considered ideal by Rubens, as well as the selection of his models .

Began to bow down to the explanations Alden, as Rubens's workshop was the most massive and the most successful in Europe, much more massively than Molenaera workshops, Frank, Teniersa, Druchsluuta etc. And where are all these work? Missing? Why worship Rubens and deprive him of the right to errors - in fact none of his competitors today are not suffering from lack of attribution, although most - work shops for patterns, as well as in the studio of Rubens. After all, there must be more than three dozen well-known of his works somewhere?

All in all, I can not hide his sympathy, by all three versions, I think Aldenskaya version looks more refined, especially around Meleager and the Furies than the other two, but the restorers it? Could you say more about this, if you can see on the photos.

Thank you, if you find more time for me.

Greg, but when you buy this work and spend all the research on it, then you do get all the answers to the same questions.
Only if this proves to be very unsuccessful copy of the 17th century, you your money back no one returns.

That is, go for it!

All decisions for you!

Tov . uriart rights. I think not worth powder and shot ...
Although the deal in any way to you. If the work is really like - buy , you will be familiar to say that you have hanging from the workshop of Rubens' work , according to Western experts. :D>

Rubens
 

Just such a purchase should not do. Somewhere to be lapses in the schedule or in the discussion, unless I'm wrong. With such a conversation with famous experts unwittingly stops - if the answer to a particular question does not appear or is not convincing . So avoid intuition - not an option , because this feeling never not seen vserez - need indisputable sound arguments. I realize that this picture is always the blame for the workshop , but you need somewhere to stay in the further assumptions and relevant steps. When selling the same questions arise again and need to know the answers.

Picture does not convince authored by Rubens, is the only opinion.


But doubts have already been set out above, I will not repeat.

Rubens
 

Cases neprodazhi Rubens in London a lot recently and for the same reason - not convinced. In each of those cases, however, the answers to questions or did not receive any answers were stupid. The graphics are also not consistent oeuvre.
Here are the answers to stop the final conclusion. Workshop (according to the three main) is, but the rough restoration distracting. Appeals pursuant Meleager and the Furies. Perhaps, too, and trumpeter.

I would not want us to make God of Rubens. Because of this, the most numerous in Europe workshop has three dozen works of which have less indisputable. I am in the "god" does not believe his own authorship fraud because of the inability to draw all or well enough to teach a workshop - the most probable version. In addition, a high-quality items are claimed by Rubens, but otherwise the picture is presented as a workshop.

Just found out that the painting came from the collection of the Marquis de Kavaseppo (Cavaceppo). I can not find on the Internet - where it is. Do not fiction?

Opinions Rubens-nerubens much. Unfortunately, little "because ..." Therefore, by the way, with Delilah and Samson are not removed, because no "to that-that," and basic graphic mistakes there weight - read. "The murder of the innocent" (50 million pounds) in total - with modern-pigments.

In one of the above that-that used the word "traced" - a new word (to me) as "registered". Perhaps this lack of understanding lies the root of my narrow-mindedness.

Is there not "why that", please.

Thanks in advance.

Greg, why are you on the Russian forum asking for help Rubens ?
We here have different experts of course, but above all in Russian art . Of European painting at the correct European experts to find out.
When we spoke on the phone you more about myself auction house Schloss-ahlden wanted to know how much it is reliable as a partner and attribution as well.
All is strange when Rubens are not selling at Sotheby's and Christie's.

Rubens
 

Hello , Constantine,

As said above , I asked Hans Vlige , Walter Liedtke and David Jaffe. Written response : "good" jobs workshop. Go they will not - it is indecent to stop going against Hofstede in his homeland . Neither Sotheby's nor Christie would like to have - just suppose - they will ask the same guys.
Such revelry opinions, as in Russia, I have not seen : usually a couple of stars and all they ask. Respect the opinions of whether the Hermitage in Russia - it seems there is none.
I repeat: there is no longer ask anyone . If you know - tell a similar level forum here.

On the other side, and that is in the above experts, but experience and a pair of eyes watching .

So I tried to find out separately from those who have those eyes .

Wrong?

Forum of such level not.
And not only in Russia, but a little wider ...
Are you sure, before asking , saw similar discussions in this forum . And most of all were satisfied with the time put the question. You've heard the answer , what else?
Experience of the last several years has shown that the collective intelligence is rarely wrong forum . And controversial cases always immediately reflected in the dispute between the parties .
In your case the forum is unanimous in the statements and in the tacit approval of the other participants.
Strongly advise considering.