Форум по искусству и инвестициям в искусство

- Artists, artworks, art history (https://forum.artinvestment.ru/forumdisplay.php?f=76)

- - Pontormo or Bronzino? (https://forum.artinvestment.ru/showthread.php?t=142762)

Pontormo or Bronzino?

Dear forum users !
I am preparing material for a lecture on Mannerism find work, not previously seen (Thank the Internet! :)>) . By themselves, they are quite unusual, they have an amazing time for composition ( now - then used to everything , but everything is the same 16th century) . Everything is wonderful , but the authorship of confusion .
At some sites , " the Holy Matthew " is attributed to Jacopo Pontormo
http://www.artunframed.com/pontormo.htm

and on the other - Angelo Bronzino
http://arte-historia.com/retratos-de...ta-el-bronzino

Maybe someone knows yet whose work ?
I managed to find two more of the same series - St. John and St . Mark, but I can not find St . Luke, if anyone has a show , pliz :shy:>
P.S. And St . John found the site by Pontormo , and St. . Mark on the site but Bronzino confidence to both sites there is now no .

Цитата:

Сообщение от uriart (Сообщение 1881111)

look at this site

http://www.wga.hu/index1.html

Thank :)>

Here is attributed to St. Matthew Bronzino.
This convinced me, because I found St.
Luke - it's written by Pontormo.
They seem to have written two tondo with evangelists.

Here St.
Luke

Bronzino me personally it does not like, but Pontormo - very similar.

Dear zarajara, then the story, in fact, was.
In 1525 Ludovico Capponi someone bought a Florentine church of Santa Felicita chapel and asked her to decorate Pontormo. He worked for three years (until 1828) by performing a series of frescoes and easel works. In the 18th century chapel vault painted by Pontormo, was destroyed. As a result, a preserved fresco (The Annunciation), a lot of work in oil on board, "Descent from the Cross" (incidentally, one of the best things in Pontormo) and four discussed Tondo (oil on board).
Vasari in the life of Pontormo wrote that three Tondo wrote himself a master, but one thing - his pupil Bronzino, noticing that Pontormo himself always did my thing, but if something is trusted disciple, then in his work did not interfere. So since then and became the custom to consider.
But in the early 20th century. began to appear on this account doubt. As a result, the mid-20th century, opinion was divided. While the undisputed work of Pontormo is just John. To all the rest were detected preparatory drawings hands Bronzino (two in the Uffizi, one in Besançon). So in these three works can be found three different opinions. That is referred to pictures (sorry for the quality, better not). The names in the titles.
This here, you know, parsley.

Цитата:

Сообщение от fabosch; 1881311"

As long as the undisputed work of Pontormo is just John .

Well, I can not believe that Matthew was able to write Bronzino.

Luke and Mark were written well , I would say in student , and this work - does not.
And izvivistye characteristic angles, strange fascinating osveschalovo figures - all this indicates is that it Pontormo .

Цитата:

Сообщение от fabosch (Сообщение 1881311)

SW. fabosch, many thanks for the detailed information, despite the fact that the authorship of the situation has not been clarified. I think it would be a mistake not to sign these papers two names. In the end, it still was the order of Pontormo. This in itself is retroissledovanie gave me great pleasure, I hope - not me alone.
I am very interested in this composition of St.. St. Matthew. Although many have been very resourceful mannerist in the compositions, but in this "vylezanii" out of the picture there is something very modern, even eerie face komiksovoy + character + "choking" putti, which in composition and does not need it.
I was, thought it was a symbol of St. Matthew - an angel, but it's cherubs, angels, cherubs in the form of a character I do not recall, and the other characters do not have Tondo, behind only Luke peeps bull's head. Besides the three evangelists only Matthew looks at the viewer, and how watching! With some dismay. What would all this mean? A strange work, themes, and interesting.
P.S. No, Mark, and looks, but calm and even a little flirty. :)>

zarajara, third photo - work like Bronzino , in Italy there was an exhibition , I saw a photo from this work it was there. I search photos, though lazy, but I have confidence 100%

Update : Here page Engl. Wikipedia , and there 4th job

Update 2: I found . All 4 of Bronzino - photo from the exhibition here, and here paper

Цитата:

Сообщение от zarajara (Сообщение 1882201)

Vg. fabosch, many thanks for the detailed information, despite the fact that the authorship of the situation has not been clarified. I think it would be a mistake not to sign these papers two names. In the end, it still was the order of Pontormo. This in itself is retroissledovanie gave me great pleasure, I hope - not me alone.

Yes, that's not what you alone.

Цитата:

Сообщение от zarajara (Сообщение 1882201)

I am very interested in this composition St. St. Matthew. Although many have been very resourceful mannerist in the compositions, but in this "vylezanii" out of the picture there is something very modern, even eerie face komiksovoy + character + "choking" putti, which in composition and does not need it.
I was, thought it was a symbol of St. Matthew - an angel, but it's cherubs, angels, cherubs in the form of a character I do not recall, and the other characters do not have Tondo, behind only Luke peeps bull's head. Besides the three evangelists only Matthew looks at the viewer, and how watching! With some dismay. What would all this mean? A strange work, themes, and interesting.
P.S. No, Mark, and looks, but calm and even a little flirty. :)>

As for Matt, I would have leaned more to the point of view of Comrade. Guriev. Very much it pontormovsky. Bronzino more refined, delicate and not so radical in its desire to rethink and to deprive the ideals of the Renaissance.
Nevertheless, all four tondo appear in the catalog of works by Pontormo (1973), and three in the catalog of works of Bronzino (1973) more recent published sources I have not.
I guess we never know for sure whose hand was the principal in this work. And is it really so important. After all, the auction seemed to show them is not collected.
And this is one of my favorite Bronzino

Цитата:

Сообщение от iside (Сообщение 1882281)

iside, Thank you . When you look at the photo, where all four of the row, we are struck by their pairing : John + Matthew, Mark, Luke + , especially in color. However, in terms of authorship it may mean something and can not mean anything . Well , we shall assume that the Italians really understood, just hung out together for four tondo exhibition Bronzino. :)>

Цитата:

Сообщение от iside (Сообщение 1882281)

Update 2: I found.
All 4 of Bronzino - this photo from the show, and here's an article

iside, and perhaps in the article does not say about the alleged authorship of the works of three of the four?

Here's a quote:

Il percorso espositivo, diviso in sei segmenti, s'apre all'insegna dello stretto rapporto che legò il Pontormo ed il Bronzino: un legame talmente serrato che è ancora controversa l'assegnazione di tre dei quattro tondi con
Evangelisti che ornano la Cappella Capponi in Santa Trinita, utilmente esposti all'altezza dell'occhio dell'osservatore e dando conto - tramite fotografie - del loro allestimento originale.

Цитата:

Сообщение от zarajara; 1882881"

However, in terms of authorship it may mean something and can not mean anything . Well , we shall assume that the Italians really understood, just hung out together for four tondo exhibition Bronzino .

zarajara, Yeah, you 're quite right.
fabosch, so what, it's just an article about the exhibition, there does not reflect the views of experts, who for those who opposed, and why, and how all the experts involved in attribution . 1 for and 5 against , or vice versa , and 5 for 1 against .

As far as I know the Italians, and I can imagine the logic of their actions, if you had put , it means more sure than unsure. Although , in the particular case , may not be the case . :)>

Цитата:

Сообщение от iside; 1883011"

As far as I know the Italians, and I can imagine the logic of their actions, if you had put , it means more sure than unsure .

And if the decision taken by the exhibition of ethnic Hungarians living in Italy, the opinion in support of his argument authorship should ask who drank a couple of times "current" ?

Цитата:

Сообщение от Fed (Сообщение 1886271)

And if the decision taken by the exhibition of ethnic Hungarians living in Italy, the opinion in support of his argument authorship should ask who drank a couple of times , " Tokai "?

I've something to the message did not quite understand . Hungary, Italy ...
Part of modern Italy has long belonged to the Austro-Hungarian Empire - that's what I know.

Цитата:

Сообщение от Fed (Сообщение 1886271)

And if the decision taken by the exhibition of ethnic Hungarians living in Italy, the opinion in support of his argument authorship should ask who drank a couple of times, "Tokai"?

I do not understand the Hungarians of particular relevance to these artists?
all the Italians?
to art?
:)>