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-   -   Forgery in the auction, "Three Centuries" November 10, 2013 (https://forum.artinvestment.ru/showthread.php?t=222512)

Artem 06.11.2013 21:58

Цитата:

Сообщение от Maroussia (Сообщение 2835341)
Sorry, I'm a little confused : the story of the consequences of which asks Artem, and the history of counterfeiting of Nilus with expertise Gerashchenko , which began topic Vivienne - are one and the same ? Subject obviously cut and, as usual , in the most interesting place ... So it's hard to understand "fresh examination of the rank rank " - is what ? For whose signature ... If the examination , it was said, "fresh " and even Moscow - we have already begun to insure professional liability experts. So ....

 Sorry , I made ​​a mess ... featured two different expertise to work as a total expert .. but here it is -.
Цитата:

Сообщение от Vivien (Сообщение 2831591)
I already wrote once in the subject Fakes http: //forum.artinvestment.ru /show...61#post2040861
about fake picture P.Nilusa with expert advice Gerashchenko .

Now, a year and a half , she pops up at auction
http://www.triveka-auction.com/
Lot number 43.
Please remove the organizers is from the auction , as the sole and original work of P. Nilus is in Odessa. Photo 1 - the original. Photo 2 - forgery .


anik 06.11.2013 22:30

Why does the buyer need an expert piece of paper ? Because he does not trust the seller.
If, on the one hand, you will be working on a way to inspire and honest seller to the buyer , and the other - to show the insignificance of papers dishonest , irresponsible "experts" , then eventually achieve that buyers will trust the sellers and may appear conscientious experts (unless, of course, be imputed to them the material and criminal responsibility for their signature ) .

Вивьен 06.11.2013 23:05

Цитата:

Сообщение от Maroussia ; 2835341 "
Subject clear cut and, as usual , in the most interesting place ...

Alas ...
It's all about the lyrics of "bad " experts , but some of the answers so far no one knows :
1. Was Odessa expertise ? Refer to it in this thread, but it vanished during an attack on a forum. If so, can we see it?
2 . The results of chemical analysis .
3 . Provenance .

uriart 07.11.2013 09:18

mobydick, I understand that the way you present this fake job?
So I 'll tell you something .
This work is a fake , I was featured in Kiev still 5-7 years ago. It was unsigned.
 and if I remember correctly (do not want to indicate to the person) after a conversation with me was made by chemical analysis of the paint layer to the work. And he revealed that the work was written 3-5 years ago.
This is a brand I know for sure . And if the person who showed it to me will not mind if I call the person's name . Addition, I've seen this work.

Вивьен 07.11.2013 12:23

uriart, Thank you very much for this post in this thread.

Today counterfeiting is no longer on the territory of Ukraine, and now the only Russian specialists to understand how is it possible that an employee could NINE March 4, 2011 to give an expert opinion on the job.

тандем 07.11.2013 12:33

Цитата:

Сообщение от uriart; 2835641 "
Now I tell you something ....

Oh , right , " dyutetektiv " ....
uriart, obizhaytes.Ya not mean all of this never-ending story about the stupid desire to cash in on the wheeler-dealer making falshakov . Infinite , because there were before " Nilus ." They sold them successfully on the Ukrainian auctions and will sell more . Yes, with regard to the examination, then how Vakulenko told her in Ukraine. No. her in Russia . And there is the desire of individuals with the seals in their pockets to get their share of the pie . Even if these pies with potato peelings .

Маруся 07.11.2013 17:18

Цитата:

Сообщение от Vivienne , 2835531 "
Alas ...
It's all about the lyrics of "bad " experts , but some of the answers so far no one knows :
1. Was Odessa expertise ? Refer to it in this thread, but it vanished during an attack on a forum. If so, can we see it?
2 . The results of chemical analysis .
3 . Provenance .

Magic word - provenance ! Those who have no provenance - he is forced to ask the experts , and they could be as lucky ...
Any long-term provenance outweigh the opinion of many experts put together.
Vivienne !
Since you wrote about this job a long time ago - you and cards in your hand . Collect all the data on the original in the form of documents or confirmed data ( when created , who sold on what the exhibition for who owns today) + get confirmation that Nilus did not repeat ( as I understand it , you have access to the archives of the artist ) .
Internet forums - it certainly is power, but the legal issues are best addressed with documents in rrukah .
More and reparation will be able to ... and in Russia too.

uriart 07.11.2013 18:30

tandem, "" Yes, with regard to the examination, how rightly said Vakulenko, Ukraine does not have it ""

Well, if Vakulenko, so to speak, was referring to himself in the first place, he is absolutely right!
Although he claims to be an expert for almost all sections of painting, etc.

Вивьен 07.11.2013 19:31

Цитата:

Сообщение от Maroussia (Сообщение 2836111)
More and reparation will be able to ...
and in Russia too.

Thank you)))) But I do not need any compensation.
The damage inflicted is not just me, but the reputation of experts that issued the report.

Маруся 07.11.2013 21:39

Цитата:

Сообщение от Vivienne , 2836341 "
Thank you) ))) But I do not need any compensation . The damage inflicted is not just me, but the reputation of experts that issued the report.

Yes please )))
I was more worried about that , " the artistic heritage of the artist" and least of all about the reputation of the experts ( I have at this point there own opinion )
If all the protests will remain at this forum - then so be it
Who is against ?

Вивьен 08.11.2013 23:41

Цитата:

Сообщение от Maroussia (Сообщение 2836481)
If all the protests will remain at this forum - then so be it

This is not a protest, and the intention to convey to the majority of market participants about the situation.

Artem 09.11.2013 09:53

Цитата:

Сообщение от Maroussia (Сообщение 2836481)
Yes please )))
  and least of all about the reputation of the experts ( I have at this point there own opinion )
If all the protests will remain at this forum - then so be it
Who is against ?

  This situation needs to bring up for discussion , not just here .....

Errors in varying degrees, allow all professionals to avoid the mistakes of the past , we must at least know them ....

We must not forget that we are talking about the expert who makes an examination on the first row of the names of artists

U_Z 09.11.2013 19:21

In public "harakiri"
 
Вложений: 3
I wanted to test myself . Or only I see in these works , then that other members can not pay attention or I dreamed it all .

I tried to see the "work from the auction " live, but I did not succeed , since at the request of the representatives of the auction at the time she was on the examination and I will have to base their arguments solely on the photo on the screen.

I am a little familiar with the work of P. Nilus (we are talking about the " nasmotrennosti " genuine creativity in the museum 's collections , excluding sufficiently careful inspection of the exhibition of the artist in TG) and do not have historical data about the work and life of the Association of South Russian artists.

I would also like to note that with the a deep respect for Vivian as a researcher and promoter of creativity TYURH .

Ever wanted to clarify the terminology for your post :
image of the picture provided by Vivien , I will call the "Work Vivian " or " PB ".
image of the painting from the auction catalog - "Working with the auction " or " RA" .


We consider and compare the picture from left to right , top to bottom .

1. On the " Work Vivian " in the upper left corner of the painting depicts three small format with a not very correct geometric orientation with respect to the wall. On the " Work with the auction " of the picture posted is also not very true and partly changed the plot .
Читать дальше... 

2 . On the " PB " is present part of the big picture gold frame and low beneath it, to " RA" it's not, but maybe the image was cropped to the catalog , although it can be seen at " RA" (see " photo angle " by Vivienne ) .

3 . On the " PB " wallpaper patterns around without drawing on the " RA" is present diamond pattern wallpaper. Why " counterfeiters " retreat from the original and add items that are not in the photo, and he saw the wallpaper in the original or the image of the file /print edition ?

4 . Pridivannye tables are written identically except for the top of the foot . On the " RA" she even looks more harmonious, in my opinion. Why " accomplice " to deviate from the original " PB »?

5 . On the " PB " girl puts flowers in a vase ( vase is only planned in the picture) and looks " into the distance /in yourself." On the " RA" the flowers are in the vase and she also does not look at the flowers , and the " distance /in yourself."

6. The lower-left corner. On the " PB " only scheduled composition (we can consider the contour chair /chair ) , while the " RA" it clearly and professionally displayed. Moreover, the chair on the design (note the front leg chairs) very clearly follows the design of " a table with a lamp " (note the front leg of a table ) . As counterfeiters could draw something that is not " a photo " and accurately convey chair design ? Why " counterfeiters " retreat from the original and adding a chair almost missing in the photo , or he saw this chair in the original or the image of the file /print edition ?

7. The back wall . Panels . On the " RA" traced texture frame and added its bottom bracket and is registered plinth . Why " counterfeiters " retreat from the original and add items that are not in the photo, and he saw them in the original or the image of the file /print edition ?

8. Table with a lamp . On the " RA" lamp is slightly turned to the man standing and removed a cigarette case ? with the foreground . Why " counterfeiters " retreat from the original composition and clean the elements present on the " PB /or photos of this work »?

9. Man (seated character) . As I see it , to " PB " before the artist was tasked to write the character in the picture, but not enough horizontal space of the canvas and it turned out that the character of his left foot as it comes on the girl's dress sitting . In this view sitting directed to the area of ​​the base of the bouquet. Then , as the " RA" sitting compositionally pushed and eyes lowered . Also in the " RA" is registered in more detail chair, whereas in the " CM " he only guessed .

10 . And the last rhetorical question. What counted " counterfeiters " by making the work with " the famous original" using modern paint. Original- source code available, independent study in any case will show mismatch of colors claimed time ?

If someone will be able to clearly answer the questions me - I will be grateful.


The plot :

I have two versions of the story silhouetted picture.
 
First , the two friends came to the widow ( girlfriend ) of his dead friend ( another sister ) , this is indicated by " impeaching " the views of the characters pictures. Perhaps it is the case that many words or silence when the words difficult to find . Dark girl dress , dark suits men left empty chair ( chair " departed " man , as the saying goes , " still warm place "). By the way, step on the widow's dress is "not very good ", thereby sitting " trampling " mourning women , but I think the artist did not have such a thought , and it was an accident (see the version above).
 
IMHO, " PB " is not planned to be completed in this format , and there was compositional , plot and coloristic sketch for the artist. Perhaps this explains the lack of a signature on " PB ".

Second , sitting on a chair with another man came to woo the girl, but she did not look at him and not presented them with flowers ...

IMHO, " RA" plot /composition looks more dramatic.


The authorship of "work Vivien ».

From the reports of Vivian , I realized that the efforts of the members of the forum is installed /authorship attributed to " PB " P. Nilus . But , are there any documented evidence of this : archival material (mention of this work in the letters , memoirs , etc.), conducted a study of the work process (construction , for example, the initial figure, the comparison application technique of the paint layer , the study paints an identity with the standard works of the painter of this period of creativity , etc. ) ?

Vivienne opinion concerning the period of creation of " PB »: « original, represented here by me , actually written by P. Nilus in the late 1890 's - early 1900's » , whereas P. Nilus says : "I started with peredvizhnichestva was desperate realist, lovingly subscribed to the smallest detail, and if the button on his coat was made bad - I despaired . And then I was struck by the Russian romance, and I realized that excludes romanticism realism ».


The time of writing the work .

Perhaps Vivian knows what a real event in question in the picture. Characters - the real event - really. If we are at the moment ascribe authorship of " PB " P. Nilus , then the picture , IMHO, from the transition period of the artist from peredvizhnicheskogo realism (see the person sitting ) to the romantic Impressionism (late 1910's - 1920's . ) .
My feeling is that " RV " - the end of 1900 - beginning of the 1910s .


Version of " RA" with the signature /without .

According to the correspondence believe Vivian and I are difficult to comment, as if I had access /ownership was the original work of the author , of which very few people know , and the market offers a " fake " work without a signature, then I would by all means would have done it photo (for example , saying that the need for macro VIP client , etc. and etc. ) .


Writing of Nilus from memory .

Write such a work solely from memory , in my opinion, is not possible ( without a photo or sketch , not seeing the "living " of the interior ) . The story of how the work of this size and a rather complex story was written by the artist in exile from memory, and then sent to Odessa - is hardly realistic. Sign the paper " Nilus " in Russian with a solid sign for the shipment citizen of the Soviet Union - is also unlikely , then the author would have signed " P. Nilus "in order not to compromise the old-regime writing signed new owners work.

If the " RA " was a real (after extensive research ), it is most likely could have been written by the artist , using the sketch , " PB " and the real interior with its large and small elements of the situation .

Or is it to write " RA" was used quality photograph with " PB " and additional photographic /archival material real interior with its large and small elements of the situation ?



Conclusion : Almost all of my research will have no grounds , in the event that an independent chemical . study of the paint layer and the circuits of the preparatory drawing show - the beginning of XXI century.
With only one nuance that " counterfeiters in Ukraine" so was able to feel the subject of the picture (and even a photo) , which, in my opinion, created a work of more subtle and sensual in nature. In short , we must be on guard !

IMHO, it would be appropriate to explore both the full-scale work (preferably together ) to determine the authorship and time of creation , as one work without a signature , and the second is now " painted violent paints ."

PS: Please respected members of the forum not to put me "thank you" for this post , because I spent my time exclusively to the search for truth .

cos 09.11.2013 20:53

U_Z, do not say "Thank you", I just want to express my respect for the search for truth.

Артём 09.11.2013 23:22

Вложений: 1
Цитата:

Сообщение от U_Z; 2838471 "
Why " accomplice " to deviate from the original ?

U_Z, some times you have asked this question . I think it's obvious - it's is not a copy , and fake, and that's it . You can even shorter - is not a copy!
And the person doing the painting , it is the hope for further sale, adding or changing items and plot. Since writing a big chair in the foreground and thereby diverting the viewer's attention from the main characters wanted to rename the product of nothing less than the "Ballad of a chair and a large table ." Forgery (RA) carefully spelled out , but with the big prof.oshibkami . For example, center of interest at work Vivien clearly appears lighter rhythm, all other details are subject to the center and closer in tone - is the ABC (in the photo I showed in red pencil ) ! At work, fake all by itself - bright picture on the wall , a bright vase, light shirt heroine faces of friends , etc. - Is not subject to compositional rhythm , I would even say that he did ( RA ) is a student of the Odessa College , he has yet to come ))) . But the work of Vivienne - a professional job , and just across the canvas shows the influence of time.


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