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-   -   History of Counterfeiting Grigorieva (https://forum.artinvestment.ru/showthread.php?t=129822)

Евгений 13.02.2014 06:44

Dear Solnce, do not need to troll in this topic, you expressed your assumptions, and the tenth time repeating that Basner white and fluffy ..

Your idea is clear, but now you just zabaltyvaet topic ..

Кирилл Сызранский 13.02.2014 12:28

Цитата:

Сообщение от Solnce; 2996321"
Clear until one Basner and Vasiliev had before the transaction show a picture of the museum " technology." Would not have this fight .

That picture gave Shumakov Basner Vasilyev found only in 1.5 years.
You have before you go into public defenders , would have learned texture case.
Цитата:

Сообщение от Solnce; 2996321"
If you do not put people involved in creating falshaka and entered skillful fake misleading - it is bad .

So far, only the case filed and filed for fraud - stealing someone else's property or the acquisition of another's property by fraud or breach of trust , Art. 159 of the Criminal Code , and Basner impute her part 4 , the heaviest , there " committed by an organized group or a large amount of " - up to 10 years in prison , no joke .

тата 13.02.2014 12:48

"The gray market, gray market ...." - give it, precisely characteristic.
 
Technological expertise is not yet concluded, and it is a procedure where is $ 500?

Solnce 13.02.2014 19:40

Цитата:

Сообщение от Eriksson (Сообщение 2996371)
<! - 8 ~ ~ ->

Solnce, examples are given .

Surprised by your question.
All major auctions of Sotheby's and Christie's and others when taking pictures send them to their laboratories or strongly recommend you do expertise in expert centers , depending on the master.
To take part in the auction pile issued securities if bought the painting - a new stack of papers and all these documents are payment and accepted by the courts.
And in this case, just trying to legalize the sale of all-black scheme - no payment documents or examinations.

Added after 6 minutes
Цитата:

Сообщение от acetate (Сообщение 2996801)
" gray market , gray market .... " - give it , precisely characteristic .
 Technological expertise is not yet concluded , and it is a procedure where is $ 500 ?

Neither classification may not be perfect , but the most accurate is
follows:
black market - a market where they sell stolen valuables ;
gray market - trade "at home" in the shadows ;
white market - auctions , official gallery

Now I do not know , but before painting pass checked by examination without cronyism cost about $ 500 - in cash <! - ~ 1 ~ ->

Added after 16 minutes
Цитата:

Сообщение от Eugene (Сообщение 2996381)
Dear Solnce, do not need to troll in this topic, you expressed your assumptions , and the tenth time repeating that Basner white and fluffy ..
Your idea is clear , but now you just zabaltyvaet topic ..

Never said that " white and fluffy " . There are mistakes and there are victims .
But , should bear criminal responsibility falsifiers catapulted the picture on the market and who introduced misleading the entire chain. This case is not voobshe Basner . It - or deal Aronson or business Aronson , Basner , publisher ...
Prosecution in this case is selective rather selective media attack and it's nothing to do with the law has not.
The investigation did not "killer " , which the victim, in accordance with its opinion indicates who will be sitting . The investigation itself should reveal who did and catapulted the fraud , and not put the one who more than anyone else does not like the victim .

Кирилл Сызранский 13.02.2014 20:07

Цитата:

Сообщение от Solnce (Сообщение 2997861)
Now I do not know

Why write then?

Added after 3 minutes
Цитата:

Сообщение от Solnce; 2997861"
should bear criminal responsibility falsifiers catapulted the picture on the market and who introduced misleading the entire chain.

The artist, who ordered a copy ? Or the one who gave Basner copy for sale as a job Grigorieva ? Or whoever prepared under this fake provenance , photographed in the library magazine Burceva 1914 with a reproduction of the original?
Or the one who made the original photos in the store and let the manufacturer copies there , that he well understood the technique of execution and things to hit the numbers ?

Solnce 13.02.2014 20:17

Цитата:

Сообщение от Cyril Syzran (Сообщение 2996761)
That picture gave Shumakov Basner Vasilyev found only in 1.5 years.
You before you go into public defenders , would have learned texture case.

So far, only the case filed and filed for fraud - stealing someone else's property or the acquisition of another's property by fraud or breach of trust , Art. 159 of the Criminal Code .
EV Basner also impute her part 4 , the heaviest , there " committed by an organized group or a large amount of " - up to 10 years in prison , no joke .

And why not SHumakova attracted ? You imagine this vopos not asked? It was he who sold fake Grigorieva . Here ask a question and you will understand why the case was filed against Basner and not SHumakova which extends only as a witness.
Yes this Vasiliev himself to blame ! Painting bought without examination, the deal has not been documented and even designed , may have been drunk ! <! - ~ 7 ~ ->
Incidentally, we should find out from where the St. Petersburg physician such denzhischi ...
Yes , Solnce?

The texture of the case read the words only Vasilyeva , unfortunately.
Shumakov returned the money , and Basner has not returned ?
Actually, you do not go back any items without a receipt , it is - by the way .
Denzhischi I do not care , someone sells pies , and some paintings. Social hatred foreign to me .
Vasilyev did not require examination pattern before the deal and it is very strange. Gun at his temple is not kept at the sale until complained.
Criminal liability in the case of forgery should bear forgers , not people entered skillful crafts misleading. This does not negate the liability of all actors in the chain .
In short - Aronson find and investigate , and if he says proves that the materials for the manufacture of counterfeit Basner gave him , then she is. Vasilyev should extend to civil proceedings and all the rest there to send money and moral claims to show each other .

Кирилл Сызранский 13.02.2014 20:19

Цитата:

Сообщение от Solnce (Сообщение 2997961)
Shumakov returned the money, and did not return Basner?

Nobody any money Vasilyev did not return.

Added after 53 seconds
Цитата:

Сообщение от Solnce (Сообщение 2997961)
short - Aronson find and investigate

Yes, Comrade Marshal!

Solnce 13.02.2014 20:31

Цитата:

Сообщение от Cyril Syzran (Сообщение 2997931)
Why write then?
____________________

The artist, who ordered a copy ? Or the one who gave Basner copy for sale as a job Grigorieva ? Or whoever prepared under this fake provenance , photographed in the library magazine Burceva 1914 with a reproduction of the original?
Or the one who made the original photos in the store and let go of the manufacturer copies , so that he well understood the technique of execution and things to hit the numbers ?

Well , okay , well, now the price has risen in price - as now put into Grabar , TG stands , let $ 1000 in cash (I'm not talking about bribes ) and that it is expensive in the transaction 000 $ 250 - did not pass on the check ?

You quote Vasiliev. He is well prepared with lawyers charge for a long time .
But as long as this person is not found - who did and why he did not clear. Basner explanation - no. Painting all the museum received written in the 90s . 20 centuries . At what point have written copy? Who wrote it?

I'm afraid the investigation and will not investigate if such an attack the media - and all condemn Basner and speculators rejoice .

K-Maler 13.02.2014 20:36

Цитата:

Сообщение от Solnce; 2997861"
This is not the case voobshe Basner . It - or deal Aronson or business Aronson , Basner , publisher ...

Sorry, but we need to repeat : of these persons that these two paintings , knew exactly Basner (since she took this picture when transferring it to the museum ) . Other participants in the chain may not be aware of this . Artist manufacturer forgery could not know that it will be sold as the original - he ordered a copy . Otherwise, all copyists so you can blame. If he was given a quality photograph and ordered resolution. And the size of the original , he could not know.
Because , theoretically , a copy should be 10cm . smaller than the original , because of the danger of substitution of the original copy ... On this occasion were in the period of perestroika in the Hermitage disassembly even seem Politkovskaya wrote about it .

Solnce 13.02.2014 20:38

Цитата:

Сообщение от Cyril Syzran (Сообщение 2997981)
Anybody have any money Vasilyev did not return .

You are not alone here Basner defender to represent.


Yes, Comrade Marshal !

Where did you have before something ? Here , all spread out on the shelves, clearly and precisely formulated problem , all defined scope of work !

Bad that was not returned , and yes, this publisher ( long supply the paintings Vasilyev ) also did not bother to pass the examination pattern.
I do not advocate Basner I to this media hype not heard about it . But I do not want that to persecuted innocent people.
Scope of work and limits of criminal prosecution , I define and - law . It ends where it ends up meaning. And - to amass money is not a crime , but faked picture and misleading , knowing that it is a fake - fraud. Aronson would sell the painting as a copy in 1000 - one would not say a word .


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