Форум по искусству и инвестициям в искусство

Форум по искусству и инвестициям в искусство (https://forum.artinvestment.ru/index.php)
-   Art Kaleidoscope (https://forum.artinvestment.ru/forumdisplay.php?f=236)
-   -   History of Counterfeiting Grigorieva (https://forum.artinvestment.ru/showthread.php?t=129822)

K-Maler 10.02.2014 23:04

Цитата:

Сообщение от SergeySpb ; 2989761"
For the method patented Basner need a sample of the paint to the canvas ? Who will otkolupyvat paint ( even a small fragment) with paintings worth hundreds of thousands of dollars ?

Does anyone know what the examination carried out by this method ? Is there somewhere a unit issued and whether the examination based on the results obtained in this way ?

Маруся 10.02.2014 23:04

On the general analogies and analogies in the proceedings in particular :

Цитата:

Сообщение от Solnce; 2990631"
In fact Preobrazhensky was a genuine examination of Grabar handed picture for examination not Transfiguration ,

And someone challenges the authenticity examination Grigorieva " in Grabar " referenced by Andrey Vasilyev , and on which it is - they - and pointed ? So send a public inquiry - it's probably the date and number of acceptance they confirm At the request of listeners
And probably will not work for examination Basner gave (well, not on the status of it , and a conflict of interest ) , and for example Ivan Ivanov ( certainly not Aranson )

What else you do not like the analogy with the case Preobrazhensky ?
Reason and we can compare any number 's investigation has no such opportunities , and desire a little , so will the beaten path, it seems to me

Solnce 10.02.2014 23:17

Different things at the Transfiguration rather have Dealer Serov and Nikonov examination was before the sale of paintings and handed over to the examination a Kuteinikov , gave dealers a picture with the expertise that the picture is authentic and are sold ( or given ) the so-called victim. Condemned not an expert and gallery owner who saw the picture only with the expertise that the picture is authentic and brush Kiseleva , it seems. Generally, a long story, I will not take your time retelling - there is an order for the Transfiguration personally . http://www.sovsekretno.ru/articles/id/1569/

Here arrested Basner reason and not a publisher , in general there are differences ...
But you're right - can again put intermediaries (optional victim) , and forgers ( scammers ) will do with it.
I can hardly believe that Basner falshak knowingly sold . I think it was framed. In the field of criminal law in the sale of the chains are forgers , after stuffing falshaka on the market , the rest of the mediators used " blindly " . Well, do not come to an expert swindler and says I brought falshak ! Any " provenance " tells the nightingale sings. Experts will understand what I mean .
Vasiliev here before buying the painting even passed the examination. Why ? Why then passed ?

Маруся 10.02.2014 23:22

Цитата:

Сообщение от Solnce (Сообщение 2990931)
after stuffing falshaka on the market, the rest of the mediators used "blindly".
Well, do not come to an expert swindler and says I brought falshak!
Any "provenance" tells the nightingale sings.
Experts will understand what I mean.


Well fool would not understand and "expert" understand

Алексеев 10.02.2014 23:27

Цитата:

Сообщение от K-Maler (Сообщение 2990891)
Does anyone know what the examination carried out by this method ? Is there somewhere a unit issued and whether the examination based on the results obtained in this way ?

After the invention of the method is necessary for him to invent the machine ! ) )
In fact, according to her method , the sample pattern is burned in the spectrometer and , as in the usual technological expertise , revealed the presence of cesium and strontium . Logically thinking , there are many nuances. For example, if there isotopes over 45 years since they must be on the new and old patterns . Either they must have a new body pattern , and the old - on the surface. But then except spectrometer requires a special set-top box type electron microscope so that you can burn any layer of the sample taken , not just the top . This is a very professional work , not to mention that prior to sampling need to create map paintings restoration , not to fall into the restoration and ensure that the sample is not contaminated. Difficult work requiring extremely high qualification.

Solnce 10.02.2014 23:42

Цитата:

Сообщение от Maroussia (Сообщение 2985351)
agree


And the reaction of the expert community - Eligibility: who is not a mediator - that's not my fault!

Why psredniki something to blame if they did not know it was fake and forged?
Yes, in the civil courts, lawsuits can be requested (as at Sotheby's), but to put all the people - absurd!

Кирилл Сызранский 10.02.2014 23:44

Цитата:

Сообщение от Solnce; 2990931"
I can hardly believe that Basner consciously falshak

Цитата:

Elena Veniaminovna Mr. Shumakov called and said that there is a wonderful picture of Grigorieva Leningrad good collection of old , where there are some wonderful paintings Grigorieva , and asked him whether he had a buyer for this picture. But only on condition that he did not disclose its participation in this .

Second: Elena Veniaminovna received money . And there was an interesting story. Mr. Shumakov got all quite a large sum , it happened on July 11 at 12 noon. And already somewhere in 13.00 man named Aranson, which we figure remains enigmatic figure slightly virtual ( no one has ever seen , do not know it exists or not , assume that it is) , received 180 thousand dollars. 70 thousand dollars melted on the road with the Petrograd side in the city center . There's just go, but they disappeared . During this time the money was in the hands of two people - and SHumakova Basner . There was nobody else . I learned about the participation of Ms. Basner and a half years only. I do not know in what capacity while Ms. Basner took part in it : as an expert ? No. She participated as a secret member of a certain chain .

Цитата:

Сообщение от Solnce; 2990931"
Why then passed ?

Because it :
1. Yuly Rybakov told him that he already Grabar " Grigorieva " took as a forgery and
2 . to Grigorieva exhibition at the Russian Museum was issued its catalog , which was reproduced thing Grigorva " restaurant . "

Added after 1 minutes
Цитата:

Сообщение от Solnce (Сообщение 2990971)
plant but all people - absurd!

Why do you pronounce it here?
Go to court, the investigative committee and there is talk.

Solnce 10.02.2014 23:54

It is curious that Natanovu wrote fake artist from St. Petersburg:


http://mirnov.ru/rubriki-novostey/ob...hivyj-avangard

Well done Germans - find forgers.

Eriksson 11.02.2014 00:01

Цитата:

Сообщение от Solnce (Сообщение 2991031)
It is curious that Natanovu wrote fake artist from St. Petersburg:


Solnce, thank you for quoting me so nicely.
<! - ~ 6 ~ ->

Solnce 11.02.2014 00:09

Цитата:

Сообщение от Maroussia (Сообщение 2990941)
Well fool would not understand as an "expert" understand

Ie , all the experts are wrong intentionally ?

Added after 3 minutes
Цитата:

Сообщение от Eriksson (Сообщение 2991051)
Solnce, thank you for quoting me so nicely . <! - ~ 6 ~ ->

Forgive me if wrong , not out of malice . You just wanted to send about the Germans and the authorship links - certainly yours!

Added after 21 minutes
Цитата:

Сообщение от Cyril Syzran (Сообщение 2990981)
Because it :
1. Yuly Rybakov told him that he already Grabar " Grigorieva " took as a forgery and
2 . to Grigorieva exhibition at the Russian Museum was issued its catalog , which was reproduced thing Grigorva " restaurant . "
_______________________

Why do you pronounce it here ? Go to court, the investigative committee and there is talk .


I am not a witness in the case and appear in court have no right .
Here on the forum and we are discussing exactly this case.
While we only see the version and wishes of the attacking side and draw conclusions according to Vasiliev.
Protection has not yet expressed .
I do not deny that someone made a fake. But why should sit Basner and not forgers ?
Why not Vassiliev passed picture even in Grabar , even in the belt , at least in the State Tretyakov Gallery before buying it? Basner would not be arrested , but he would not lose money.

Евгений 11.02.2014 05:39

Цитата:

Сообщение от khmelev; 1734813 "
..... And then , obviously the money were distributed by Christian or fraternal , but not exactly in Rivne and spent all witting or unwitting accomplices . , Did not think about the consequences .
And the consequences were not slow to come , so as the thing exhibited in Moscow was immediately recognized, raised all the documents , people , communication, and the question was who would be responsible ? Respond to mean giving money.
Why do not they have been given ? On this question the science answer can not be mozhet.Mozhet someone left , maybe someone lost them , can be relied on Russian maybe . I do not know , but decided not to return the money , .....

Цитата:

Сообщение от Silent Sapa ; 1734611"
Not very same Basner picture painted, I think. But she surprised me : the world has not gone on , supporters are not passed , the money is not returned and drove off .... Flint Filyandiyu female . I used her nerves .

I agree with you .. but seen Basner , commissions (70,000 USD ) , just head demolished ..

Цитата:

Сообщение от Solnce; 2990931"
" .. And why intermediaries something to blame if they did not know it was fake and forged ...? " I can hardly believe that Basner falshak knowingly sold . I think it was set up

According to the information that is on the Internet , in an interview A.Vasileva Basner knowingly selling fake knew 100%that it is a fake ( Basner , not a girl from a vocational school , and an international expert on Russian avant-garde painting knew that the original work is in the collections of the Russian Museum , where she worked for 15 years) , deliberately took commission ..
-------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------
Here is a discussion forum on the site ARTinvestment.RU " work " expert Basner in Finland ( November 2009 , October 2011 , etc.) ....
Цитата:

Сообщение от Tyutchev ; 1735121"
Whatever it was, but already considerably damaged reputation Elena Basner after this incident finally " go to the bottom ." This is the logical conclusion of the auction house expert for Bukowski, who "glory" so , that shit on it can not be translated ( in Russian art section , at least) . Which expert , and this auction ! Here, for example , the old topic of Basner . http://forum.artinvestment.ru/showth...light=Bukowski

" ... The logical conclusion " for Elena Basner .. "... January 31, 2014 in St. Petersburg as part of an investigation under Part 4 of Article 159 of the Criminal Code" Fraud in a large scale " was detained Elena Basner - Russian expert former museum employee eminent auction house in Finland Bukowskis, an international expert on painting Russian avant-garde. matter investigated main Investigation Department of the RF IC in St. Petersburg .... "
================================================== ===================

p.s. Dear Solnce, nobody wants E.Basner imprisonment , but if you nakosyachila , decide normally this joint , not mocked and kollektsionerom.V this problem that has now arisen for Elena , and these problems will be grow like a snowball ...

mihailovoh 11.02.2014 07:52

Solnce,
About Preobrazhenskih.na as I remember . There it was not a series of kartine.a sold fakes and other technology of their appearance ..
On Basner.ona in any embodiment . link in the chain of intermediaries and participants Scams ( mk consequence nadeetsya.chto weak she is. much to lose ), and most importantly she could not know where the original ones acted deliberately .. And since she's also rabotala.est chances to get on primary - how to get counterfeiters dospup closed funds museums.
I have no provenance upyamyanul ranee.chto serious raboty.smotret on examination ..... same thing. Monetku.Vasilev throw that knew no history podlinnika.no znal.chto is already in Russkom.a Basner could not know .

Кирилл Сызранский 11.02.2014 08:00

Цитата:

Сообщение от Eugene ; 2991251"
but seen Basner , commissions (70,000 USD ) , just head demolished ..

I do not think that the size of these fees could "carry" her head .
And its exposure in the episode with Vasilyev I explained to her the situation and experiences of similar output of Neh .
Not the first in her Vasiliev was , but Vasiliev Basner know how special person , and because " turned green ", knowing who Shumakov sold "Grigorieva".

Аркадий 11.02.2014 08:23

Цитата:

Сообщение от Solnce (Сообщение 2990931)
I can hardly believe that Basner falshak knowingly sold . I think it was framed. In the field of criminal law in the sale of the chains are forgers , after stuffing falshaka on the market , the rest of the mediators used " blindly " . Well, do not come to an expert swindler and says I brought falshak ! Any " provenance " tells the nightingale sings. Experts will understand what I mean .

 Yeah, understand .. Do not be a fool , Solnce. Basner impossible, as you put it , " substitute " , it is not a simple intermediary , and EXPERT. Moreover, the expert , holding the script is this , who knows where it is stored , etc. What is it ? Basner certainly (I emphasize - certainly) knew that sells fake indirectly evidenced and its attempt to conceal their involvement in the transaction. Same figure some Aronson , bulges Ms. Basner etc. to the fore, and little importance is negligible . Good expert is not able to mislead nor Aronson nor whole platoon " Aronson " division or " Ivan Ivanov" (I speak for myself , no , " Aronson ," under any circumstances can not convince me that a modern remake , it's a fake script icon ) .

goldberg 11.02.2014 08:41

nightingale Basner not feed ...
 
"In general, I begin to fear that this confusion will continue for a very long time." (P.)


And who even knows where the real Grigoriev, and where a fake?
Maybe put a fake to the store, and sold this?

Then comes more fun.


Часовой пояс GMT +3, время: 02:28.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Перевод: zCarot