How young we were (article in "Art Magazine" for 2002)

[Yaya]

In "Art Magazine" for 2002 found the interview. Old but very interesting. Hopefully someone will be interested.

Artist and the market

In the discussion involved: artists Yuri Albert, Vladimir Dubosarskiy, George the First, the editor of "XQ" Viktor Misiano
Money - as they expect, acquire and lose

Viktor Misiano: I remember the episode, which very accurately describes the period of the beginning of our hapless liberal reforms. In 1992, Leonid Bazhanov acquainted me with them created by the Center for Contemporary Art at the Yakimanka, where a non-profit exhibition hall was surrounded by a chain of commercial galleries. "These galleries will be feeding us" - is explained by this linkage of commercial and noncommercial programs. That was the mindset of the era - then some triumphant ideology of money, the idea of "morally ought" of being in business, the identity of the commercial and noncommercial. Ten years have passed, all those present have experience of existence in dialogue with the commercial and noncommercial beginnings of artistic life.

Yuri Albert: His first piece I sold in 1987, while being already well-known artist. Nikita Andrievich came from the gallery "Moscow Palette" and paid me and Andrei Filippov for the work of eight hundred rubles. I did not see his face, but Andrei's face was white as the wall. Before that we lived in a month for sixty-five rubles, and such money is not never seen alive. It was a shock, and I do not even know what is it compare now. So then we have to get used to, because everything good quickly get used to. Although then very quickly all over.

Vladimir Dubosarskiy: I can tell her, the artist, 90's, the experience of meeting with the money. I remember this scene. 90-th year. The five of us were sitting in a dirty, tattered workshop, almost all had only recently arrived in Moscow. "Senior comrades" - trapped in the "Russian wave" perestroika era - we are told that "the train has already left." And we sit without money and without prospects. We had a while rubbed western guide to some of the auction. And so we go out, buy from grandmothers port wine or vodka, come back, open the catalog, and then: Warhol - 800 thousand, someone else - 700. And somehow it all warmed, because the reality was horrible.

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After having the first gallery, there are plants, there is commercial art, and is - a non-profit, the first can not do. The boundaries between them, no one understood it all tried to somehow figure out. The situation then was immature, none of the older generation - Chuykova, Bulatov, Kabakov - in Moscow was not there and people who were about thirty, were the older generation. Everyone understood that the market should be, but what - clearly no one knew. Were "buyers" - people who came to Russia to buy a souvenir for three hundred dollars. Were "dealers" - the people who drove these "buyers" in the studio. The work cost in the years from 200 to 800 dollars, that was then, and its price, and value. And then, to the 95 th year, everything collapsed - banks, the new Russian, invest in art ...

The lull lasted a year, then another year to live has become increasingly difficult, although all said: "Patience, patience!". Foreigners come here and have stopped, the state is not supported, and the artist, like any person needed money. Many left, began to do business, become designers - artists remained less and less. We have with Aleksei Shulgin was a theory that left about twenty artists, and here they are, then after some time and will demand of both commercial and "Art".

But two years later, the situation is gradually beginning to progress, cost rise, the investment begins to flow in contemporary art. And the moment we can speak about the origin of "business of contemporary art. And the prices were adequate. If previously called the price - two thousand dollars, and you answered: "Two thousand!? For it?", But now people understand the real value of art. Can not buy, but clutched his head, no one will. Just now, I think, from artists no adequate response.

 
"The market strategy of the artist"

V. Misiano: In the early 90's I have often heard from those Vladimir calls "senior comrades", the phrase "market strategy of the artist" ...

V. Dubosarskiy: The project "Art at the order" we thought at the time of maximum stagnation, and the market it's aimed at was not. The only thing that meant, so it is that, if ever the market there, our work will generate interest at least because they are handmade. We did a big picture and so far, by the way, only one of them and sold, so that, in terms of the market, they were unsuccessful. Besides the name, they do not benefit and is still a lie in our studio, or in some galleries. Actively sold only our small work, while the costs of large pictures were rather large. And by "Suitcase" format, we walked quite a long time.

V. Misiano: The fact that these works are not bought, - very curious!

V. Dubosarskiy: In this work we have all invested a lot and so we decided to sell them only in a good place for good money. When there was no money, we worked part time - painted posters or some small pictures, but to sell more cheaply refused to work. As we were told "senior comrades", such work is better not to sell.

Albert Yu: So you were aware that these works have historical value?

V. Dubosarskiy: Yes, but our strategy has always been a contact with society. So when a client asked us "now, only a little," we agreed to and did, but not a reduced copy of the big picture, and a piece of it. After all our work - is, in essence, the world of visual images of our copyrights and we can divide it into small particles by writing, for example, separate a small butterfly or an apple - they will also be part of our world. Because the commercialization process for us was pretty simple and painless.

Albert Yu: I am the same, though always believed that the market - this is good and useful for any strategy of relations with him are not formed. Almost all of my "famous" works still stand in my home. But, the truth, I never sold them for $ 200. I just have them not so much, my method does not involve line production. So we are discussing what is not - something the market has just begun.

V. Misiano: But why, on the one hand, you have no bias to the market, but on the other - you are creating a methodology that does not include the effective implementation of thy works, and while you setuesh the absence of a market? ...

Albert Yu: I am not specifically trying to, just happened. The fact is that in the late 70's, in the 80's was the mythology of democracy and the market, from which I now do not refuse, but her attitude is more realistic. A leftist mythology, non-profit art then was not - there was no market, respectively, and anti-market sentiment. Rather, non-commercial and commercial time did not differ from afar, and indeed it was irrelevant.

It is also important that there was no room for work. The work of one meter on I painted the bathroom, leaning against it to the washboard. So there was no incentive to create such a work, because I can call those five friends who it was interesting, to say: "I immediately thought of this oryasinu three to eight meters, all red and green and anything else in the middle." And this could finish: friends understand at a glance - all took place. And keep such work would be nowhere. In addition, we were so-called "conceptualists, which involved photos, stocks, texts, ie, that always, even in developed market, is cheaper.

V. Misiano: But why do not you try to develop their methodology? Rotate it to the market?

Albert Yu: I created a methodology, not because the way I wanted. There was a certain logic of the Moscow Art, which led to its creation, and I can not change it at will, simply because I want money, though I really want. I am sure that in art we are doing is not what we want and what you need in the art of the moment. So you either sign the "Contract with art" or not. So I signed it.

V. Misiano: George, you - a new generation of artists who came to art in another context, already in the market country. How do you sum strategy with the market?

George the First: Each artist presents himself to the market, and the case of the market - to decide his fate. But like the products that you offer - exclusive, there is a chance that you will not adjust to someone's tastes, and vice versa. But for this you position yourself correctly - as the exclusivity that you - the creator.

 
Market conditions and the corporation "History of Art

V. Misiano: So, the young artists exacerbate the problem - the less we market, the more we are exclusive and, therefore, of interest to the market. Do not we, George?

G. First: The artist, in my opinion, is exclusive and in their rights to freedom. We are in the public conversation - a sort of blessed. What is not allowed to all, allowed us. We all have different styles, but since we are all in this community, we are all in different voices sing basically the same thing. That's how we should position ourselves.

Albert Yu: To me, this position is not democratic. I do not think that artists with something better and more freely, or that they can serve someone in some examples. This is the first. And secondly, I do not think that the task of the artist is positioning itself. The task of the artist - to produce something, not necessarily the material that can be positioned. And the logic of what he has to make - is the logic of history of art, not the logic of development of society, although these things and are closely linked. We work within the art, which is included in a culture that is woven into life, and so immediately jump out of a particular work in life - is difficult. We can play in this, but should not forget that this is a game.

G. First: I could imagine it as the parliament, and we occupy a place in this parliament. There is an exchange of remarks, there is always a struggle.

V. Misiano: But it turns out that in this parliament, the artist initially reserves the exclusive place.

Albert Yu: When we come out of the studio, we are citizens, like everyone else. Nothing special in the artists there. A cobbler can also talk - we are cobblers, we busts all humanity, so we have a torch shoe craftsmanship - an exclusive product, no one else does not boot, only cobblers.

V. Dubosarskiy: I think that both positions have the right to exist. There is only one "but" - we should be blessed and for that you should answer. And when you, for example, to talk about it - just a strategy of speech.

G. First: artist - creative people, a man who is in the mainstream, but does not become part of it.

Albert Yu: Incidentally, the "creatives" - this is the term of the advertising business, which does not free. Creatives worketh not, but should convey the idea of the customer to a specific user. And the customer is constantly changing: today - Coca-cola, tomorrow - vodka, the day after tomorrow - gaskets. Our customer is always the same, and this is not a particular firm, but - "eternity", the history of art.


V. Misiano: Is the artist, who works for a corporation in art history, free from the environment? Is this firm does not imply a social order? Moreover, except with the "History of Art" is not paying by check or cash?

Albert Yu: It all depends on the claims. If you want to enter the middle class, drawing pictures or doing the installation, it is one thing, but if your claim - to get to heaven, it is absolutely different. And this is not always associated with a specific monetary value.

V. Misiano: In other words, the economic situation - it is understated claims?

G. First: Yes! We need to raise their self-esteem. Just picking it up, we will be able to realize its mission, which in turn will cause the recognition of our human society. This is a happy opportunity - to be an individualist.

Gallery owner - such as it is, and the buyer - such as it is not

V. Misiano: But what happens when an artist who works for a corporation in art history, is faced with reality - with gallerists, covetous, or simply the desire to eat? How to bring value through world, defined by the prices?

V. Dubosarskiy: All we want to be a child of Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and nothing less. And then confronted with the market, and you have to defend not only their financial interests, but also its artistic identity. For example, a gallery owner comes to us, for which, naturally, the most important thing for sale, and says: "Draw a big picture for the exhibition, two by three meters." We say: "No, a large painting - it is three to six, and another at the exhibition, we do not want to paint." Naturally, he starts to object, and it is necessary to have the will and insist on their point of view. This I tell the real story, happened to us. Then the big picture, on which we insisted in the dispute, Achille Bonito Oliva sent to some large non-profit art exhibition, which immediately increased its price.

G. First: As for me, I decided not to sacrifice part of their competence and to go down, I soon decided to wait until the clients can get up to me.

Albert Yu: I think this issue at all, even as something it is not necessary, because the artist can not do otherwise. If a gallery owner tells me: "Be different", I can not, even if I try very hard.

V. Misiano: I've also seen - and in the West and in Russia - the real situation, the pressure on the artist's gallerist. Owners of galleries may insist on the continuation of a series of works, when it loses interest for the author, or adjustments to existing ones.

Albert Yu: Sometimes it's necessary to make compromises. For example, I sometimes do, or replica versions of their older works, although it is rather boring. But, I think, has there been such that the abstract artist asked to paint naked women. To do this simply to invite another artist. But the situation changed its creativity - and get fame and wealth "I have never heard of.

B. Dubosarskiy: I agree. Galleries take you so what you are. Correction is minimal. If you are a photographer, then on you do not have to do performances, and offered to print this picture smaller or black and white, often offer some very interesting things. Sometimes it is necessary not to get up chest, and oriental relax and try to take a closer look. Suddenly you offer interesting things that you yourself could not see? This is not a conjuncture, is the life of the artist.

V. Misiano: In addition to the conjuncture and sometimes it makes sense to listen - it's the voice of reality. And yet, at the time of job, whether you have an image of a hypothetical consumer purchaser of this work?

Albert Yu: Yes, but the consumer and the buyer - this is not always one and the same image. For me, the consumer - is more a spectator than the buyer. A buyer can not predict: in my experience, the buyer purchases our product is not for the fact that we have for their own value. The man asked: "Why you bought this particular job?" And he tells in response that the work to him, for example, recalled something from my childhood, and this fact has little to do with the fact that I put into it.

V. Dubosarskiy: At one time we declared the project "Art for order", ie, our willingness to do the work commissioned by a particular person. Born on this project, of course, as a provocative game, but when he has earned, we do not say "no." But it so happened that we did not satisfy the whim of customers, and vice versa - so we managed to impose our style, that the customer is simply a request to paint something in our style.

Gallery owner - companion or friend?

V. Misiano: Talking about the specifics of the curatorial choice in Russian conditions, deprived of infrastructure, I usually insist that he was motivated by friendship. And gallery owners? How to construct relationships with gallerists in the absence of the market? After all, a gallery owner, choosing the artist, runs the risk of money! It is the highest form of trust!

G. First: Moscow gallery owners willing to risk money, but to a greater extent follow conjuncture, to the extent to which it is understood. Financial issues play a crucial role, but the gallery owner - the figure of a dependent. Rather, he tries to survive and uses the artist as a man, whom he manipulates for his own purposes. Owners of galleries do not position themselves as a free institution, independent of the taste of the public as a place where to go look at something new. Range of Moscow galleries restricted the ability of societies.

Albert Yu: But that's OK, gallery and should be the "shop". They may not be entirely non-profit art, as there are no non-profit stores, another thing is that the gallery heroically trade that is not so easy to sell.

B. Dubosarskiy: In fact, relations between Moscow gallery owner and artist is really friendly, since they are all about one generation and one of prosperity. And this is neither good nor bad, just there. In addition, the gallery is only now becoming commercial, but before they were a base of art, playing the role of exhibition halls. Many of them had been completely curatorial ambitions.

If we talk about Western gallerist, some impose strict market relations, and on the other we have very friendly relations. This is a normal mechanism, it does not need to deify, do not deny it's just a normal way of life of the artist, and many artists live it through this. You can live and not through the sale of their works in galleries, but only with the help of some exhibitions, publications, fellowships, but this is the same conjuncture. You calculate, what the curator, what better job to give it much better to send your portfolio, where there is more chance to get a scholarship. All this is only a matter of personal choice of the artist, as it seems easier to push their creativity.

Albert Yu: We are here talking about the market as originally profitable things. But most of the galleries - insanely expensive enterprise, based on the same irrational love of art, which is for artists. In any other business can earn more. And this is true both for the Western reality, and especially for Russia.

But are the artist to the market?

V. Misiano: Over the past few years we live in an atmosphere of market expectations, market recovery, complaints about his absence, to search for causes or is responsible. But are the artist to the market?

V. Dubosarskiy: Today there is every indication that interest in Russian art reborn. But I am afraid, the artists have nothing to offer in return.

V. Misiano: Why?

B. Dubosarskiy: At least in the absence of institutionalized mechanisms: we have not turned out the artistic hierarchy. We had a generation "firmament", the recognized classics. Same Zvezdochetov - participated in the document at the Venice Biennale, but he stayed on the market beginning artists. And because there are no producers of quality market product.

Albert Yu: High-quality product? We are all here talking about the art market, not noticing him another important features - there is no absolute criteria of quality. It is understandable why, for example, a Mercedes is more expensive Zhiguli - it is objectively better. For artists such criteria no. Of course, we can name some: the impact of, their own emotions from the work of the author, the degree of his sacrifice. But it's all neverifitsiruemye values, they are not applicable to other authors. If Van Gogh cut off his ear, it does not mean that if any artist has cut off his ear - it will be Van Gogh. But otherwise, I absolutely agree with Vladimir: Our artists are forced to begin anew every six months because of the lack of its institutional Russia's society.

V. Misiano: But in neinstitutsionalizirovannosti and non-market has its obvious advantages. Jura remembered today as he called friends and told me the idea of work. This was the era of underground communal, friendly cosiness, free from rivalry, from responsibility, from a professional. Art is perceived as a way of life as a game, and not as a product. Do not you think that many of deliberately delaying this situation, in which we have grown up a generation of artists?

V. Dubosarskiy: This can be overcome by change of generations. There is a new generation, who grew up in market conditions and aimed at life in the market. They are free from our underground complexes, from our infantilism. For them, creative development - the development in the market.

G. First: Our generation, it is intermediate, we do not belong to any opposition. In many ways we - in principle opportunists who try to be sensitive order, did not even formulated by the older generation.

Albert Yu: I remembered a passage from Marshak:

My friend, what about the young years
You announce to the public reading?
Since you have not yet started - not a poet,
And if you started - it is not a beginner.

V. Dubosarskiy: You would have Korney Chukovsky remembered ...

Albert Yu: Please! It is said that at a meeting with young writers Chukovskij said: "Friends Write earnest: for it is better to pay!"

Material prepared Vasily Shevchenko