Lissitzky Kabakov MDF

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Olga Sviblova
Talking c Ilya and Emilia Kabakov
Olga Sviblova ( OS ) : I would like to begin our conversation with a question about your attitude to Lissitzky . As it was formed as me? What a transformation has occurred ( if there ) , when you start working on the exhibition "Utopia and Reality . El Lissitzky , Ilya and Emilia Kabakov '?

Ilya Kabakov ( IK ) : I must say that the proposal to make steam exhibition - and our Lissitzky - which at one time made ​​the Directorate of Eindhoven , of course , at first surprised and terribly frightened . First, it is a meeting with an absolute classic and incredibly influential in the world against the author . Secondly, it is the opposite to me in some psychological and aesthetic moments personality. Everything pointed to the fact that this meeting is utterly impossible that a meeting of foreign -minded people . The fact is that in his mental state we belong completely to a different time of life in the Soviet Union . And I have no interest at the time - 1950-1980 's, when we lived in the Soviet Union - no sympathy , we can say to the avant-garde, except some abstract respect , was not.
I did not have a sense of aesthetic or continue a meaningful sense of what was called the Russian avant-garde. In education, we had a full time gap , as is well known because of the vanguard of the Soviet people did not exist at all - neither in education nor in the museum space. For me, it was completely vanished era . It's the same thing as saying that you have some kind of relationship with antiquity . No antiquity was not, was the loss of language and the loss of the meaning of what was said in the ancient times .
We live, as it seemed , stopped time in forever . And there was a perfectly formed ( finally , we thought ) Soviet language of official Soviet art . Our education is completely passed not only Russian avant-garde, but also the entire Western XX century . We lived in a total of Soviet installations, which is put forward by many thousands of years , it was clear to everyone that she will not change. I want to say that any hope for a similar meeting with the avant-garde does not exist. But when you are being " dumped " is an ambitious proposal extraordinary meeting with the classics ... However, we have had the experience of joint exhibitions with other artists : we worked with Kossuth , with Jan Fabre , Boltanski . But it was a meeting with his contemporaries .

Emilia Kabakov ( EK ) : We worked not only with living artists, but also with the already departed when, for example , did an exhibition "Architects ". Famous architects of the 20s Germany. We worked with their architectural material : drawings , sketches , models ... It was also interesting, but there was a different story .

IK: Yes, that was interesting. We offered to work with the archive of Bruno Taut .

EK : The peculiarity was that the projects of the German architect had some utopian , mystical . There was an incredible energy - energy fantasy.
The situation is a bit different from Lissitzky . As we become more familiar with the material, we had the feeling that he is incredibly fanatical advocate of Communism, wants to reshape , rebuild the world , to write it in communism , in which he truly believes .

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I. K : But we should not forget the other . After the so -called Jewish period of creativity ( Hebrew books , scrolls , artwork ) in Lissitzky any ideas related to changes in the global art style. In the sense that he wrote about Khan- Magomedov . On the creation of a new language Lissitzky worked in Vitebsk together with Malevich . The idea is that mankind began to speak adequately in a new era in which it moved in the XX century , and finally get from these great artists that visual language that can and should speak in Russian or in English , but around the globe.
Versatile new language for new people.

OS : What was your relationship to the artistic language Lissitzky , before you get up to the task of the joint project , where, according to Emily , we are virtually " burn the hands of this hot energy propaganda" ? Was not this so innovative in form language (which for us today insanely attractive ) associated with a new idea and charged totalitarian propaganda directive simplifying the language ? After all, it was also a break with tradition , the first revolution .

IK : Of course. This language is associated with the influx , as now, would say " collisions " of geometry to the world of art, on the entire stock and genres , including architecture , printing
business , etc. This is an invasion of geometric shapes in organic shapes - round and anthropomorphic .
It's kind of what he said to his disciples, Rodchenko : " Throw brushes , pencils, take a ruler , a compass and draw a ... " This gesture is directly related to the dominance of straight lines and clear at all in the geometry of thinking. The shortest way - in a straight line .
Here is the "direct" route is also connected with the idea that the world is moving faster and faster . If we operate on the forms and speed of a turtle , the
we are not going anywhere. We have moved into a new world , and this new dynamic enthusiasm inspired many artists to cut time " entry in the future."
Radical in their aspirations Malevich using "simple geometry" solved the problem of creating a parallel world who will live according to the laws of Suprematism . This is the perfect , as they would say before, " chelovekobozhie " - incredible right to take the new system of the universe.
Before Lissitzky , I think these mystical and transcendental problems did not stand. He had the task of creating , I would say , a kind of International artists. That is, the union of workers of art literally in the same vein as the Communist International , obliged to implement a system that converts the entire plastic world , the creation of a universal plastic language in which to speak all over the world.

OS : So, from an organizational point of view, he was not far off , and even to some extent was the forerunner of what later became the Union of Soviet artists united realists. That is, the artists eventually merged , but on the other aesthetic plastic platform.

IK: To some extent. The objectives were clear: to create a common universal visual language . Its founders are, so to say , the main thing the Politburo. With such an idea of the International ( I , of course, blasphemous exaggerate) Lissitzky addressed during his visit to Germany in 1920 to Schwitters and Moholy - Nagy . He hoped to meet people close to them , which could become part of the commissariat .

OS : But they did not.

IK: Do not go . Probably afraid of such liability. A letter Schwitters , in which he said that he felt while working with Lissitzky strange uncomfortable pressure associated with the desire to manage his time and work.
Here encountered individualistic Western ideas of artistic innovation and Russian idea of a universal right track movement for all humanity. In a sense, this is Trotskyism : we know how to do it right , now we just organize it around the world. In this respect, there is , of course, a very strong intersection with the communist revolution and a project to make the international proletarian Soviet system.

OS : You have expressed to me it seems almost criminal mind , a very non-obvious today that Lissitzky unlike Malevich was not a metaphysical system. Malevich metaphysically invents and Lissitzky ...

IK: ... stylistically uses .

OS : Before Lissitzky were other problems , in addition to these organizational, very specific tasks that he has decided in his many projects, for example , in the decoration of the Soviet pavilion at the International Exhibition of Printing "Press" in Cologne. But when you have accepted the offer of a joint exhibition , you saw Lisicki this metaphysics or not?

IK: First, again, that in Lissitzky's no metaphysics not. This is a stylist. No wonder it is considered the world 's greatest designer of all time.
This design. This is a proposal to create the forms of things are already on the new dynamic principles, which will not be the top and bottom , either external or internal . Therefore, with such force he was able to instantly project a vision of their geometrical first on the famous " Proun " - incredible optical structures, floating in space and observable from all positions that can be. This is like an absolute model that can be used in the design of all other things.
" Proun " - a great discovery , followed by practical application. Here we can recall , for example , the magazine " thing ", created on the principles of the new design . " Then - everywhere," as they say in railway timetables : architectural projects,
magazines, books , posters, photo montages , exhibitions and installations ... The gigantic range of products , there is not a static state , and the incredible dynamics , as it were, in the next second after the explosion of creativity ...

OS : Fonts ...

IK: Yes, and fonts , of course. It's a myriad of new projects , which are made entirely phenomenal. His vision of a new aesthetic in any work done without the slightest error in any one thing - it's certainly striking.

EK : I would compare it with Kossuth , but with ideology. Ideological Kossuth . Kossuth - also great designer, but he has no ideology , the ideology of his art . And then there was the political ideology .

OS : Call Lissitzky unite artists in the "Third International" was not heard , but regardless of that invented them today began to form the basis of all the surrounding reality in which we live. Another thing is that this design a reality, maybe not promoted our minds to metaphysical heights. Although the project is pawned : we sit down for a new chair, we'll drink a cup of coffee from the new the new table, we are going to live in new homes - and it will change our essence .

IK: In any creative 's plan has three parts: the design , implementation, and attempt the final product. I must say that the one who stands at the beginning of the path - the designer - absolutely does not know what will be in the middle of the road and how it would end .
Any project in its original form - is, of course, all the colors of sparkling holiday utopia.
Lissitzky and we find the whole era of the avant-garde in the first spring , the happiest time . That is, as in " blue cup " Gaydar : Let 's go camping ! .. We get all forms - whether Leninist or Lissitzky - promises to be built as a paradise . Moreover, in this promise , among other things kept the dream of a " new man ." Who is the new man in the concept of Russian avant-garde ? This is a continuous creator . What Rodchenko wrote : "I am doing today cup, but I do not know what I will do tomorrow , as will a different idea of a different me." It's like a permanent creativity (like the permanent revolution ) .
The new man - this man is lost in life .
It is continuously producing creator , who does not stop and awakens around all the new talent. In general , refers to a new humanity .
It is the advent of a new man who continually invents something . It does not work that reproduces other people's projects . He's an engineer to build a new one.

EK : Utopia is not built for those who are there .
It was built for those who will come. In order to create a new man , it was necessary to destroy the old one.

IK: The world must consist of creative, but, of course , and managing people. Interestingly, the control people have in mind for managing their employees . But those whom they will convert , they almost can not see. In a sense, this device barnyard . I am a shepherd or an agronomist in the lab, but everything else - animals , plants - it's all stuff that I will be recycled.

EK : The experimental material . It does not matter which one. We have the right to experiment.

IK: That this talk of inhumanity ( first use this word ) , this anti-humanist , Fighter time laid in the avant-garde project of creating a new human - kreatora . The rest of humanity that lives in this world, suddenly left out of the equation .
The phenomenon of power that secretly present in the forefront - and most frightening - it's right to take the initiative to create a new world and to control it .

OS : An artist from the status of artisan moved to the status of a creator. It was with the advent of the avant-garde , in particular Russian avant-garde artist and authority are closed .
"Beat the wedge ! " Although in itself is strange that art can beat ...
That's the question , and I care about and care about today, when the whole world is like Roly-Poly : it is unclear where he was going - right, left ... I think we should , like Lissitzky , to try to find myself in this "look to the future" which
currently not available.
At the time, the beginning of a tough directive in general has assigned a motion vector ... Lissitzky , Rodchenko as how Melnikov - it's all a diagonal movement. No one knows where, but we are moving . There is a feeling that we need to move forward. Today, when the vector of movement disappeared when we tend to it here and there , the interest in Russian avant-garde has doubled . What do you think, why is it that the world does not see this second part of Russian avant-garde and the second side of the greatest Lissitzky , who created us cubes , elements of both the "Lego" , so that they played not only the children , but the whole world ? He reinterpreted real visual reality, but forgot to human content .

IK : It happened not only with the concept of Russian avant-garde. This is a change to the XIX century XX, when the artist has changed the type of self-consciousness of the artist. Prior to that, he was an artist waitstaff. He participated in the performance of work, which he ordered other people, other organizations or individuals , or the church or the state.
This autonomy of the artist from the customer , from the "other " with which he must communicate , produces an incredibly strong changes in the psyche of the artist.
Artist of the artist goes into the category of genius. That is , a creature that no one completely not in any way obliged .

EK : And would not respond.

IK: The rest is covered by fog. The transformation of the artist from the artist into a genius - a very important mutation . The present level of anthropological mutation .
OS : How do you think this happened ? This is the Van Gogh ? French Impressionists ?

IK: This type appears at the end of impressionism : Matisse , Picasso - first of all, as an archetypal phenomenon in this regard.

EK : It starts rather with Picasso.

IK: Picasso - it's pronounced type . But I think that the air of Paris late XIX - early XX century infected with the " genius of AIDS ."
Of course , there is a very large role played by social pariah state with the final formation of the complex , "I - they are ." Of course, this compensatory time . But we will not delve into the psychology of the appearance of genius.

OS : No, it is very important that you 're talking about kompensatornaja . Once upon a time the artist was a craftsman . He has gathered knowledge, studied , produced ...

IK: The fact that the appearance of a genius who does something strange to others as it may seem, due to the sharp drop in art schools across Europe. Although there is an extension of the Bologna Academy , Munich , there are schools, there are places where learning takes place . But this training has ceased to be canonized : compulsory right to enter the guild, the right to draw a picture , the right of the transition from student to artist , that is, the whole system is progressive , which persisted , I repeat, in all other forms of art, besides visual . Agree to be a musician to learn.
I want to go to the turn of the XIX-XX centuries. This is the time when a lot of artists who do not trust what they are taught . And the most interesting thing is that they despise the arts and crafts as disturbing to them to prove themselves.
The emergence of Cézanne on the artistic horizon was the most important event in the art world. Here is the unfinished " bungling " squares ... Sei-
hour , of course , I'm being ironic , because deify him as much as before. But it is important that the appearance of an amateur inventor and self- representational system that is different from the academic school , was an important step towards the liberation of the artist from the various criteria of artistic tradition.
In this case I'm talking literally as a Soviet critic, but here there is a rightness . A huge number of authors have continued to work in an academic manner , continued to craft traditions and did not realize all those amateurs who do not really know how. Looking from this point of view, and Malevich , and Cezanne, and Tatlin not owned traditional artistic language .
Picasso also a special case . Everybody said he also knows how to draw, why he started drawing " Avignon girls ?" But the fact is that the very ability to " paint" with Picasso - an imitation of academic painting. He did not believe in the virtue of representational resources that were owned . He was an imitator . It was the imitation of being artistic image . Yes, believe Repin, believed Claude Monet, who painted trees and grass. But Picasso portrayed what is called the "trees ." There is a subtlety. He was a formalist already before the draw ...

OS : Initially ?

IK: Originally . Here is the " detachment " of confidence in the school of art is very important at this moment. It's like a betrayal of the art school.
It must be said that this situation was repeated in Soviet times. My training was of absolutely crafts imitation character . I loved to paint nature. But I knew how to imitate the academic results that have not been dropped from the institute. I do not like children's illustrations , but I knew how to imitate the children's illustration , that I paid money for it .
If the art director saw that I was disingenuous draw a rabbit and hare imitate the image in the other books , of course , he would have kicked me out of the publisher. But in Soviet times was indifferent : if I believe or copy any foreign birds .
Here is the moment of " detachment ", lies, betrayal is very important for the emergence of the avant-garde psychology of genius. This raises the distance between the obligation to represent something and my own manipulative pulse. Then it looked like a new revolution : the transition from slavery to freedom and invention.

OS : Avant-garde genius - is a compensatory mechanism . And this compensatory mechanism , in theory, should strengthen the belief in what you are doing a project . What do you think is close to what this fevered exaltation ? How are we , " who was nothing will become everything " - words of the "Internationale" , once the former anthem of the country. We take people who are in fact no one at all , and agree that they ruled the world . Actually, it happened in reality. In this case, it is not utopian and realistic project that was brought to the point of absurdity.
But in the art of this compensatory mechanism is different: yes, we do not see , yeah, I do not follow the school at which I can include in the shop (because the craft pride and ethics is supposed inheritance) , but the more I did not recognize , the more there authoritarian and totalitarian exalted feeling that you are the only possible prophet . And Lissitzky , as part of this movement was , in theory, it is charged.

IK: To some extent. In addition , there was a completely different relationship to the means of painting. The emergence of the avant-garde associated with autonomization funds.
Since there is nothing else for what I use their funds , they become autonomous and represent new incredible opportunities.
For example , the color of Matisse . Manipulation of color on the surface of the painting , song , a combination of color patches , color vision in isolation from the subject of his discovery .
Picasso manipulated rhythms and the so-called vibrational point of the picture . He discovered that every piece of the picture, if it is correct position in relation to other forms incredible in its power vibration energy wave attack , which acts at a distance of perhaps 50 meters. Clash of the geometric relationships between the elements of the picture forms a vibrating attack on the psyche that it will void any protection .
We do not see , we can not make out what was on it , but we are incredibly visually vibrate and tremble near each painting by Picasso. While he did not achieve vibration-
tional attack , that this assault, the picture is not considered them ready . Vibration attack pattern was his discovery and its shape assault the viewer. Here is running through the streets
bull, which pierces the people running in front of him - it is an attack that comes from any of Picasso .
And there were plenty of other artists , maybe with less energy, which is now understood differently : as a meeting of the newly-free , free items . Of course , it is very close to the released radiation system , the freedom of an atomic explosion , when all the elements of the material world they ride , fly each separately. Of course, we can talk about the release of chaos.
But that's another topic .

OS : Let us return to basics. Here comes the art , the very first, pre-historic , iconic elements of the system. They appear as something woven into rituals . No matter what kind of system, but they are part of it. Then the plastic arts in some way relieved , gets autonomy from these purely sacred cult activities and begins to be something separate , thus serving the image of the ideas of the metaphysics and mythology, which is behind this system, the sacredness of generating visual system .
Are you saying that the XX century has generated pictorial system , which has nothing shows . It does not represent any sacred idea that once stood behind her, at its source , nor reality , which was later sakralizirovana .
If you take the European paintings , such as the Renaissance, we can talk about the emergence of interest in the man. Artists are " unstuck " from the systems of religious subjects , but for them the reality , the reality of the invasion , the emergence of direct perspective , too, becomes a metaphysical idea, because the reality of gains value as such.
And you want to say that it was with Picasso , Matisse begins exemption depiction of all that it represented that it becomes self-worth and visual weapons?

IK: Yes. As the rocket . The separation of one of the stages of the rocket that flies , somersaulting in the air, in space, in its trajectory. The same separation from the culture on the overall development of the culture is to the visual arts in the early XX century. Occurs autonomy of artistic production from the obligation to present a general cultural process.
Of course , we can talk about different forms of fragmentation and destructuring general culture. But there is a separation and the emergence of the art world , first in a small group of avant-garde artists, who do not consider themselves bound to the general cultural values. That's a very interesting question.

OS : I still want to understand . The Bolshevik revolution destroyed all previous forms of the existence of art and the artist somehow have to unite with the government , either by his heart (I think at one point it was very sincerely ) , or even because it was the only customer , and it was necessary to understand what the customer wants this one . And this one customer wanted the destruction of the old world .

IK: That's right .

OS : But they say: " We serve ." No one has ever before Russian avant-garde did not declare that the artists - room service . Take, for example , photomontage , where Lissitzky also had a brilliant achievement ... Klutsis , Rodchenko fought - and Lissitzky was also included in this battle : who is more of a new government?

IK: It's not about power. This is a separate issue , full of tragedy : the transition from the concept of freedom to servitude, to fulfill orders of power. The fact that the whole guard - and European and Russian including - a pinnacle of freedom. Artistic production should be free , and the person who creates these products - is free. This struggle for freedom - a very important moment in the struggle with the cultural phenomena of the past.
What do I mean? I am convinced that in classical art (why it hangs in museums, and why it will live for a long time and after our existence) there are three very important component. First - it is sublime , vertical , spirit , as it is named, which is present in the artwork . Second - the aesthetic aspect . Very great quality , balance, complexity of construction of the aesthetic of the product. The third essential component - is the presence of the human element , turning to the man. Handling and subaudition person already in the idea of creating a work of art . Subaudition another person. This is done for others, not for himself. This and the other for the other. These three components are very important in the classic sense and fully fit into the history of culture, which must also have these three components .
Avant-garde revolution is associated with the loss of both the first and the third . All of this art is sublime. It completely ignores the ministry vertically, the highest sense , though , of course, there are present and the subconscious , and archetypal , but it is not relevant to the field of " sublime ." Of course , one can cite the example of Kandinsky with his spiritual art , but that's another topic . Typically, the avant-garde revolution is associated with a loss of interest in it to the " sublime ." And with the loss of interest to the person as such.

EK : I want to add a few words to the question of how artists have declared themselves as servants . The fact that all prior art systems have been part of such
concepts as "service" , and it and understood . They were already in the " services". It did not need to declare . They were born with it, working in the cultural environment ,
who was serving a different environment . So it was in the music, in the theater. They knew their place in society.
There will be new artists were and were able to declare themselves free . Here for the first time and came with a choice . And their choice was to be servants , not servants of a certain elite, as servants of a free society. They seem to be at the same time and were rulers and servants.
It was a voluntary choice of service. Not that they have been given to serve the rulers , and they have chosen voluntary service . It's a big difference. Hence the whole of psychology : the illusion that they control , but at the same time are servants of choice.

OS : Tell me, and conscious choice position due to the fact that pejoratively to say : " I ​​am a servant , I serve ", meaning that it can only do Tsar Ivan the Terrible , who retired in Oprichnina ? .. It's a gesture of Ivan the Terrible ! The official Union of Artists also took over the function of service : organization and our way of life, and spiritual education .

IK: Yes, of course .

OS : But it was the position of the avant-garde ... And here you are talking paradoxical thing: do they realize that they lords and twist Gadget Universe.

EK : Of course. Therein lies the paradox.

OS : And humbly , carnival and said, " No, we're serving ." And it was not just a gesture of political games with those who gave them the order. And the order gave the revolutionary power of the illiterate , which is probably better at this point read blocks and squares , what, I'm sorry, picture Surikov " Boyar Morozova ." At this point, avant-garde art works primarily on the masses, and his tongue - is a powerful , especially on the emotional impact , the means of agitation .

EK : Of course.

OS : And when the Bolsheviks in the 20s used (we did then was " ahead of the rest "), sociological research methods , trying to figure out how farmers perceive the art at the Tretyakov Gallery, they found that they did not understand Wanderers. They do not understand where the head where his feet, where the figure where the sled , where the background . They are used to other advanced systems . And the perspective system of old Russian Orthodox icons was closer to the aesthetics of the avant-garde than to the canons of academic painting , which served the interests sufficiently cultivated people.

IK : I would like now to go back a little bit to the biography Lissitzky , a very important stage , namely in 1923 . At this point, he worked for three years as abroad , trying to create a system of international artists. By the end of the twenty-third year, after numerous attempts to join , including a large number of joint exhibitions with Schwitters and Arp , Lissitzky came to the profound disillusionment with the possibility of
such an alliance with Western artists. He then had the opportunity to stay in the West and continue the exhibition and artistic practice . He chose to return to Russia because he was disappointed with the inability to realize the "big project". And he was waiting , call VHUTEMAS for , as it seemed then , the opportunity to realize this idea in the New Russia .

OS : Why ? Because it does not become the number one in Europe? Europe did not want to have a vertical , pyramidal system?

IK: Yes, this commissar structure.

OS : To recognize his authority.

IK: Yes , of course.

OS : And do you think he is with this back to Russia ?

IK: Yes, I think it worked. He is skeptical of individualism and fragmentation to the language of art , which is available for each author.
He was interested in the universal language , but he was not interested in personal language. Here is the global, this versatile design that he intended to create in the world, not meet with understanding .

OS : Was it this attitude that you are voiced, the desire to create a global universal language , which is based on some underlying archetypes ? .. Whether it is a radical utopian ? Why do we say that the project "Utopia and Reality" is Lissitzky with its general objectives are very clear that it must be said, has successfully solved , is responsible for utopia ?

IK: It's very interesting twist. The fact that he came to Europe from the Soviet ambassador of Russia to promote and demonstrate the achievements of Russian avant-garde, Russian revolutionary ideas in the West. At the same time there was a merger of aesthetic and ideological innovation . This comes from a new Russia . Here's how Mayakovsky was sent .

OS : plenipotentiary representative .

IK: Absolutely , Lissitzky was the ambassador of the new Soviet ambassador of consciousness and new projects aesthetic . He returned and worked until his death in only one capacity. Many are wondering why in times of persecution , when it united artists for exhibitions abroad, many of his co-authors were deprived of work sent out , and he was able to survive until the last days of the Soviet was what is called an artist?
The key word here , which, in my opinion, well characterized by Lissitzky's place in Soviet society of the time - " special " ( abbreviated from the word "expert "). During the Soviet period , especially during the first five-year period , this word meant a lot . The whole rise of the new Soviet industry is known to carry out " experts" invited from around the world. Lissitzky worked after returning to the Soviet Union as an "expert " on the propaganda of the Soviet way of life " for my country " : the international exhibition " Press ," " Fur" , within the country , he was the "expert " on the propaganda magazines , also in my country - "USSR in the construction site . "

OS : Yes, this magazine has played an important role not only in the Soviet Union , many in the West.

IK: Yes, but here we have it , too, was on sale, only the second type of publication. High-quality , expensive to Finnish paper glossy magazine went to the West and on the cheap newsprint printed here .

OS : And notice the signatures for each picture and each article was clear that the contribution of all who make this magazine . A Russian magazine had a nominal signature.

IK : Another interesting point - the creation of these magazines. It was a kind of theater staging . There was a set of clothes sailor , farmer , soldier , paratrooper ... And sitters dressed in these outfits , they lit up , photographed in kinopavilonov ...
There was a huge collection of pictures " from the field" , but also a huge amount of stage collage material that would combine Lissitzky . Here are all standing with their rifles , shovels. Its employees were selected types. This is a very interesting exchange of a real person on the " representative". After all, the point is that if it was very important to the acceptance of each person as a " representative". All of these people were members of groups that - a representative of the bourgeoisie , this - a representative of sailors , this one - progressive , regressive peasantry , etc. The logs were created tipazhnosti blocks that ochenlegko read . In all felt a violent creative activity - the selection of "types" and create a collage of them with a simple and clear political plot.

OS : But that was not even a falsification of reality.

IK : Yes, to a nightmarish reality it does not have anything to do .

OS : It had to do with utopia. I care about the issue : it was still a utopia ?

IK: Let's go back to the triad , I was talking about : the beginning of the concert , the middle part of the symphony and the final. Lissitzky was two. He was uvertyurnuyu part , the beginning of the concert: all utopian , pompous , the desire to transform the world thanks to a new design, to transform the world on the basis of a new system of government.
And participated in the second part of the symphony when he was a small cog in an "expert ", fulfilling the will of the party and the leader.
Lissitzky exists in several guises , a few periods. It exists as a Jewish writer, as a colleague of Malevich as the failed leader and organizer of the global art International. After returning to Russia , and in fact until the end of
his life there as a " special regime " for the production of promotional products.
Can you talk about Lisicki , as a single author ? Maybe it's different personalities with very different personal characteristics ? ..

OS : What are you engaged in dialogue with Lissitzky , understanding the complex and contradictory nature of his work ?

IK: Very simple. We have made this exhibition literally system opposition. Lissitzky said one thing , and we - more. According to the general concept of this is reminiscent of daddy and child. Dad , who was building a shed , and the baby , who was buried under the rubble . Under the debris, which has turned this properly built shed. This whole show is built : Dad wanted - and that's what happened , Dad wanted - and that's the price of these dreams.

EK : Yes, I like the best, but it turned out as always.

IK: Reminiscent of Pushkin's "The Bronze Horseman ." There, too, there are " dad " - Peter I and the "child" - Eugene, who died because of the space , which " Dad " incorrectly chose to build a house . We have taken the position Eugenia , who is suffering and says, " Well are you done? One could build and dry . " Lissitzky replace at our exhibition of Peter, who said: " I ​​will build a city , someone will face ." This pathos of disgust , which is present in our work , and the pathos of creation, which is at Lissitzky , give the basic tone of the show. First : " You should have ." Answer: " Do you , Dad , did not work ."
Indeed, we present two -time Soviet era , the Soviet government. This bridge, which went up first , and the same bridge at the end of the Soviet regime, under which all rolled down , and that is because of poor settlements collapsed.

EK : We're sitting on the ruins .

IK: It's like kids on the ruins of poorly constructed buildings . Here's the basic concept of this exhibition. A look of a person who has fallen this huge building . Tatlin Tower .

OS : You know, I experienced a culture shock when I saw some of the reconstructed model Lissitzky . It is clear that visual inspection of the books on the materials we know it. But when I saw his wooden reconstruction, there was shock reaction .
"Hall of Proun " was terrible , wild, stifling room with cockroaches . I think that on their own projects Proun amazing, they 'll just carry it in the future. But when it was built in size and reproduced as it was , I did not see anything more terrible ...

IK: What are you talking about - it's great . Klopovnik , yes.

OS : absolute bug-infested . And next - your " Man flown away into space ." As someone who has installed more than three thousand shows, I think of sizes. When you told me that the installation "The Man flown away into space " will fit into the small space between the columns , I do not believe it. But it really was a very small , though it creates the illusion of space.

IK: It turns out that we were promised space ...

OS : ... and put in a bug-infested stuffy .

IK : It is possible to give such an answer . To dream, to create a utopia , to draw on pieces of paper , draw as a short prospectus ( build the future , we will create a new man ) - is best left in draft form , in the form of paper money , in the form of wood , nailed project " Tatlin's Tower ". It is best to leave all of these projects in a preliminary form , but in any case not be implemented.
Why ? They remain safe. The fact that they are realized in life , it is the worst crime that can be.
Socialism is fine, but he has to stay in the project. Many people have asked , what is the meaning of the Soviet revolution , if it ended in a garbage heap. It is in this sense it . Utopia should not be implemented in reality.

OS : Take the last article of Marx, that we have not been published before perestroika , when Marx , a developer of scientific communism , I realized that Lenin did turn his socialist ideas into reality, he wrote that it would be the worst the tragedy of the world - he was scared.
Today we are again trying to find this project modality, is working on a huge number of experts. If it was a problem only in Russia, we would say that there is a national characteristic . But the world today do not understand where to go . What the world needs a utopia as a motivating engine - obviously. If we do not see the motion vector can not see a utopia, if we do not look , do not feel that somewhere there is this
light there, from the transcendent reality , then we can not live . Fortunately or unfortunately , most of the projects have been implemented Lissitzky , and the ones we see today is not the reality , restored in the models. They cause fear instead of excitement one experiences in the form of paper projects.

EK : Lissitzky utopian ideas modeled in real space . A real space he had , I'm sorry , the provincial Jew , little man . Therefore, they are terrible .
For us today, they are implemented , and we suddenly find ourselves in its reality. We thought that it cosmic man , he is incredible utopian , and he - a small provincial man who created these terrible space here . But if you look at Corbusier , it's too naistrashneyshie , monstrous space.

IK: Yes , monstrous .

EK : When I first came to this huge "City of the Sun" - this is something terrible . This cell is less than the Soviet toilet.

IK: The so-called room - suitcase. It is important to note in all of the architectural avant-garde projects of construction profound distinction for someone and built for himself as an architect. At the same Corbusier has marvelous villas built by order of his friends : for example , a house Ozanfana . Incredibly comfortable . There is a bath , huge free space , air. But when it comes to the construction of "them" for the masses, there is a " City of the Sun ."

EK : One thousand people in one room to sleep .

IK: Strict separation - we are the elite and they are that we will manage.

OS : In fact, this position is influenced by the entire artistic culture.

EK : That is the paradox of the ruler and his servants .
For myself, I'm the governor , I am a servant to them , but in fact the opposite is true . I belong to the rulers . And all the privileges of the rulers just for me.

IK : Of course. This is the attitude of others as to the cattle there in the art world as a fundamental position: the cattle - viewer , cattle contracting , etc. Not alignment that the audience is the same as I do. In no case . This is a principled stand guard.
Now I would like to say (maybe even in the conclusion) , what is the conclusion of the exhibition , or even out of the conversation can be removed. As long as humanity lives , each of us produces a utopia. Creating projects is human , as the allocation of secretions . As long as we are human , we fantasize . We are making plans , programs, something we compose . But when these projects are in life, especially by people in power, they all end with a disaster , blood , destruction or chaos.
A scary arc : inevitably do the project , but just as inevitably they end collapse and chaos. The question arises : where to put this projective and pro-
productivity component?
The answer is: take , channeling a special " utopiopriemniki ." You may need to build a "Museum of Utopias " or to a museum in the plural.

OS : How to transform the space station power.

IK: As soon as you invented something , bring immediately to the museum. And there is a special room set aside .

EK : The cultural institution .

IK: Yes. Room 16 , the shelf 18. Utopia Lissitzky . Malevich to give more room. All this activity must- projective left in the form of a museum of priceless monuments. All of these projects , " City of the Sun " of Campanella , Thomas Moore , best left on paper , stored in special boxes in chronological order. But you can in the form of models or even in the form of installations. And this, of course, will have a special kind of art.

OS : Museums are relatively recent . The museums of art existed , for example, in the temples ...

IK: We are talking only about the art world . The art world - it's not the religious world . Culture comes into contact with religion, but the art of the avant-garde to do with religion .

OS : This is a very important point. We say that art is still secularized . However, as you said , this is the first part of the show , when the artist is a kind of higher moral values. These values ​​can be said to general humanitarian character: do not kill, do not steal , etc.
On the other hand, when we talk about them , we somehow echoes , at least partially , with the moral attitudes that exist in every religion ... At the forefront of the secularization of art from theology reaches its climax , and the artist is trying to take the position of the demiurge .

IK: Create a new theology . Of course . This is an attempt to create their own religious system. No doubt . The artist is part of culture , culture is a part of the more sublime , there is integrated a religious phenomenon .

EK : In reality, culture mimics the temple. If we look at the museum XVIII-XIX centuries , this temple construction. This transference of sacred space in the premises of a religious nature , but cultural .

OS : When you say that we should create a " utopiopriemniki " ... Yes, it's ironic, but we see that it is actually a museum and do.
Duchamp made ​​a great discovery , denoting symbolic works of art, perceived as such only in certain contexts , especially in the museum. On the other hand, the art of the twentieth century does everything to break the boundaries of the museum context. Great Ben Vautier , one of the founders of the Fluxus , on display in our museum , admitted: "We have suffered a terrible defeat - we muzeefitsirovat today ." Ben , who wanted the museum.

IK: Every artist wants a museum. It is absolutely imperative .

OS : Identity of the artist in culture is constantly changing. But why art and the figure of the artist continues to maintain its value for us ?

IK: The fact is that everyone - the author and the audience at the same time . As viewers we are the consumers. We want to see through another work any more elevated floors of cultural phenomena .
But yesterday we were listening to a house concert Miranda ... What is our need as listeners? To hear her through not only its own voice, but the sounds coming out of the space , the sounds of gypsy culture of the Russian romance . That is involved in the total field that vibrates through the voice.
The artist hopes that people listen to him . This is a profound mistake . The viewer looks through the artist. Through the artist should sound something that does not belong to the artist .

[Кирилл Сызранский]

Gelman praise show :

Simple but supereffektnaya idea. Show through the work of two artists as being born and what has led the communist utopia. Like the idea of collectivism has mutated into a communal . As the youthful enthusiasm turned into a senile grumbling . Wind Revolutions in the stifling atmosphere of stagnation. In short , it is very important. And given the current realities - The cutting- show reminder.